Solution for terrorism
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You are reading my words, but I don't think you are hearing what I am saying. :sigh: I don't really care if it was against a merkava, a T-90, an M1A2 or a datsun pickup with a m-60 on the back! If you employ aggressive methods against people with weapons, expect them to use deadly force back at you. Now, if they are already attacking you with a tank, then there should be even more expectation of a violent response from them. If that seems ludicrous to you, then you need to re-think your mental rule book of things to do and things not to do. :doh:
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I find it amusing that you automatically assume that the youth in the video was "arrested" because he was firing a salvo of rockets against Israel. :confused:
Is that what you inferred from it? I did not imply that he had, and referred to him as a 'protester'. I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements. It was a bad choice of issues to use to prove how horrible the Israelis are, compared to the likes of Hamas.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Jordan ceded the West Bank back to the Palestinian people
Nice try, but to further quote King Hussein;
In November 1974 King Hussein stated:
Read "no longer Jordan" as "It was Jordan's, we annexed it, the Israelis took it, and we don't have a snowball's chance of getting it back, so lets make it the PLO's problem, since we love Arafat so much." :-\ So 'ceded to', not 'ceded back to', is correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
Yes I would fight back, it is how I was brought up, and how I was trained. Where did I ever give you or anyone else a hard time for fighting back? What I said was that if you attack a military force, expect them to react in the manner a military force acts. If you attack them, they fight back. That usually means they try and kill you. I would never attack a tank with rocks. It might scare the people inside, and it does not have a chance of hurting them. If I were to attack a tank, it would be with flame weapons or explosives. But if I attacked it, I would expect it to fight back, whether I am using an anti-tank mine, or a rock. If you think it is OK to fight back, why don't you think it is ok for them to fight back? Would you fight with one hand tied behind your back? When it is life or death, it is not a question of fair, it is a question of winning.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah?
You want me to explain terrorism to you? You may need to back out past you affiliations and try and look at the objective picture. Terror is not right when ANYONE does it, the oppressor, or the oppressed. The Haganah was no different than the PLO, except they are no longer around. It stated goal was even the same: drive out the X and create a Y state. Only for them, X was British, not Jews, and Y was Jewish, not Palestinian I never said that torture by the IDF was right, I said it was not reasonable to respond by firing indiscriminately at civilian targets. If it is considered a victory and a blow for 'freedom' every time Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades or Fatah kills civilians, it is hard for them to complain about the IDF causing some civilian casualties when prosecuting a military target. It is hard to complain about the IDF breaking someones elbows when the Palestinian response is blowing up a bus full of civilians.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are.
Where did you see me assume this? I particularly pointed out that the Arab dictatorships use this to keep power. The more problems there are between Israel and the Palestinians, the longer they can keep up their jingoistic propaganda and shore up their poorly run and corrupt governments.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that.
If you go to someone who 'knows more than you', remember to keep their point of view in mind. Research what they say, and what they don't say. Use them as a tool, but do not let them make up your mind for you. I don't ask you to take what I say at face value, I ask you to research what I say before you try and refute it. I used the words and maps of the UN and the words of King Hussein. I could have gone to a number of sites that supported what I said, but whose point of view would be considered tainted. Consider using the technique when convincing me. If I used quotes from Ben-Gurion, Sharon or Rabin, or links to a pro-Israeli web site, you would dismiss them out of hand. If you want to provide quotes and links to me, don't quote Arafat or link to a pro-Palestinian site.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so
I have seen violence. I have seen what the land in the Middle East looks like. I have worked with both Arabs and Israelis. I understand that if I were to come upon the aftermath of a bus blown up by a Palestinian martyr, I would be very angry at the senseless violence by the Palestinians, and if I came across the IDF beating the crap out of peaceful Palestinian (and Jewish) protesters, I would despise them for their actions. I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so
I have seen violence. I have seen what the land in the Middle East looks like. I have worked with both Arabs and Israelis. I understand that if I were to come upon the aftermath of a bus blown up by a Palestinian martyr, I would be very angry at the senseless violence by the Palestinians, and if I came across the IDF beating the crap out of peaceful Palestinian (and Jewish) protesters, I would despise them for their actions. I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Thank you. You've worded it perfectly. Don't worry about the researching, I'm not so naive as to accept anything out of hand. I assure you, it'll be as unbiased as possible [the research regarding anything I'm told].
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib