Freedom of Speech - European style

Mike Gaskey

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

Was it your or Stan that pointed out a couple of years ago, that people criticizing a president during war, should be tried as traitors?

I don't know, could have been me. If you need it to be me, I'll take it.

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

For the record, I don't think the movie make should be tried. I don't think he has committed a crime that deserves prosecution.

We agree.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

Vikram A Punathambekar

"Mr Wilders called for [the Quran] to be banned" Pretty strong, but doesn't call for prosecution. "equating Islam with violence" OK, that's borderline. I should not judge without seeing the movie. But I'm not going to go out and see something that has been designed with no intention but to offend. :|

Cheers, Vıkram.

I've never ever worked anywhere where there has not been someone who given the choice I would not work with again. It's a job, you do your work, put up with the people you don't like, accept there are probably people there that don't like you a lot, and look forward to the weekends. - Josh Gray.

Jorgen Sigvardsson

I have not seen the movie, but from what I have gathered, the message of the movie was not to inspire violence against muslims. All he did was to compare some of them with Hitler, and that is an opinion, something which everyone (including movie makers) are entitled to.

Oakman

Mike Gaskey wrote:

I don't know, could have been me. If you need it to be me, I'll take it.

Nope it was Stan. He accused me of being a traitor because I said that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld were screwing up badly in Iraq.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Mike Gaskey

Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:

I'm not going to go out and see something that has been designed with no intention but to offend.

ahhh, a mind reader.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

Stan Shannon

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

Was it your or Stan that pointed out a couple of years ago, that people criticizing a president during war, should be tried as traitors?

I've never said any such thing. What is treasonous is the public promotion of criticism which provides justificaiton for an enemy to kill our troops. Claiming that a president has gone to war for nefarious purposes is, in fact, just such a justification. IF the things said of Bush were true, than the killing our troops would be a perfectly reasonable thing for an enemy to do.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

No, I didn't. I was calling Oily (or one of his ilk) a traitor when you jumped to his defense, making largly the same argument he was. Thats when I called you a traitor. And you are.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

Thats when I called you a traitor.

This was not a one-time thing. You called me, and others, traitors so often that you rival Joe McCarthy. I can see you now: "I have in my hand a list of 17 traitors in Soap Box. . .This list of 12 Traitors. . .All 29 of these traitors. . ." You only stopped calling me and the others who suggested Bush and his boy were screwing up traitors when it became obvious, even to the National Review that Rumsfeld had to go or we were going to get our ass kicked. But when Americans slander the motives of a setting commander in chief while troops are legally committed to combat is the very worst kind of treason imaginable[^] If you want to define the anti-bush vitirole as sedition, fine. I define it as treason.[^] It is treason to undermine you nations efforts at physical expansion, and it is treason to undermine its efforts to advance it foreign policy once formulated in a constitutional fashion.[^] The vitriole against Bush has gone far beyond questioning his motives to out right accusations that he is repsonsible for sacrificing American life and treasure for his own personnal selfish reasons. This has created a situation wherein either the president is a traitor to the nation or his detractors are.[^] I'm sure there are a lot more, but it isn't worth more than 5 minutes of my time to correct the record.

Jon Smith

Stan Shannon

All of which is exacly what I just said.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

MrPlankton

Whether it's prosecuting speech in Holland, using the levers of government to dig up dirt in your past for asking a question (Joe the plumber) here in the US, or regulating access to the internet as being talked about in Australia, I think we assume this is a liberty that is on the decline. However on the bright side our freedom to travel has not been infringed on yet, as is done in communist/fuedel societies... I always like looking on the bright side.

MrPlankton

Mexican boy: Viene la tormenta! Sarah Connor: What did he just say? Gas Station Attendant: He said there's a storm coming Sarah Connor: [sighs] I know.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

All of which is exacly what I just said.

Yes. You said that I'm a traitor. Because I criticised Bush, I encouraged Al Queda to kill American troops. You on the other hand said, "f*** this goddamned collectivist piece of sh*t country."

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Mike Gaskey

MrPlankton wrote:

I always like looking on the bright side.

:)

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

Because I criticised Bush, I encouraged Al Queda to kill American troops.

You did. There is no way to know how many of our troops have died as a consequence of such irresponsible use of our freedoms as Americans.

Oakman wrote:

You on the other hand said, "f*** this goddamned collectivist piece of sh*t country."

And I stand by it. Call me a traitor all you like. All I wish for is the opportunity to make the most of it.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

All I wish for is the opportunity to make the most of it.

Head off to Afghanistan. Your views on almost everything coincide with theirs.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

Your views on almost everything coincide with theirs.

No, they are not. But the fact that you compare allowing this nation to work as it was designed to work to a rouge terrorist state explains a lot about the rest of your behavior.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Mike Gaskey

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

All he did was to compare some of them with Hitler, and that is an opinion, something which everyone (including movie makers) are entitled to.

:thumbsup: damn, you're good.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

Oakman

Stan, you are a terrorist born and bred. You attack anyone who disagrees with you; you despise the country that gave you birth, you have even declared war on the U.S. I expect to read any day now that you have attacked a Federal Office building with explosives, or climbed over the fence surrounding the White House carrying a rifle. You are a real sick puppy.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

MrPlankton wrote:

However on the bright side our freedom to travel has not been infringed on yet

3 words: No, Fly, List.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

Stan, you are a terrorist born and bred. You attack anyone who disagrees with you; you despise the country that gave you birth, you have even declared war on the U.S. I expect to read any day now that you have attacked a Federal Office building with explosives, or climbed over the fence surrounding the White House carrying a rifle. You are a real sick puppy.

Sorry, to disappoint you, Jon, but that is complete bullshit. What really scares you about me is that there are people left out here who do, in fact, understand that you are full of crap. Terrorism is immoral at worst, and counterproductive at best. I understand that as well as anyone. But what is happening to this country is wrong. The democratic process has failed. The traditional values and norms of our society have been demonized and replaced with an alternavtive set as alien as they could possibly be. But, no, I would not become involved in any effort to resist any of that which was not done in a proper fashion - a stated set of political objectives properly confirmed and voted on. I have no idea how any of that could come about, but if it did, yes I would probably join it. If I felt othewise, I'm pretty sure I would not be putting my name on my posts.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

KaRl

"The opening scenes of Fitna - a Koranic term sometimes translated as "strife" - show a copy of the holy book followed by footage of the bomb attacks on the US on 11 September 2001, London in July 2005 and Madrid in March 2004. " Such a scene clearly equals Islam to terrorism, don't you think?

Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall? Fold with us! ¤ flickr