Xenophobia

KaRl

The wave of wildcat strike action that has swept across the UK escalated today as hundreds more workers walked out in the protest against foreign labour.[^] Now that the crisis become strong the old nationalist and xenophobic daemons come back. These guys just forget UK is part of the EU, and workers of the EU are free to work where they want. The first thing they should ask is that UK should leave the EU... Next, that movement started at the Lindsey oil refinery in Killingholme. This refinery is owned by TotalFinaElf, a French group. They ask a foreign company to take locals only. Following their logic, Total should play it nationalistic too and not invest a penny in UK - After all it's like stealing French jobs, isn't it?

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pseudonym67

While personally I can't stand the woman ( She's a blair apologist ) I found this was quite a good explanation of the situation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/03/gordon-brown-economic-policy[^] Not that Im advocating she's completely right nor anyone else for that matter.

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R Giskard Reventlov

You're quite wrong to see this as xenophobia or nationalism: it is neither. Not that I am condoning the action: far from it but it has a far more prosaic explanation: money. It is entirely right and proper (given the laws under which we live) that anyone from any part of europe has the right to work anywhere else. The error was that whomever negotiated the contract should have been more sensitive to local needs and could have written a clause into the contract that local labour should be used first, where appropriate. This is no different to a business based in LA stating that local labour would get first dibs: it is sensible. However, if no one can be found locally then by all means look further afield. No one in the US would think this wrong and neither should we. Further, if times were better and jobs more plentiful this protest would simply not happen: these men are frightened and fearful of the future and whilst I disagree with the strikes/protests I understand their frustration. The PM, a died in the wool socialist, said that "British jobs should be for British people"; a very stupid thing to say especially given that most of these men probably vote labour! What you should be bemoaning is the utter stupidity and poor leadership of our government: the sooner they go the better.

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KaRl

Interesting article, but she shoots the wrong duck. The Italian and Portuguese workers can work in UK because of the adhesion of UK to the EU, not because of globalization. She also forgets to say that without an opened economy, Total would not have invested in UK. The people in strike there want at the same time 'the butter and the money for the butter' (and with the creamery landlady's ass as premium if possible)

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KaRl

digital man wrote:

You're quite wrong to see this as xenophobia or nationalism:

Who are the scapegoats? Non-british workers. That's xenophobia to me.

digital man wrote:

could have written a clause into the contract that local labour should be used first

This is illegal, as long as UK is part of the EU.

digital man wrote:

these men are frightened and fearful of the future

True, but they first don't identify the real problem and next they ask for the wrong solution.

digital man wrote:

a very stupid thing to say

Agreed.

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R Giskard Reventlov

Ka?l wrote:

Who are the scapegoats? Non-british workers. That's xenophobia to me.

You've missed the point: this isn't about foreign workers; if they'd all been welsh or from London the response would have been the same: they want work and they're pissed that by dint of living close by they didn't get it whether or not they deserved it or were skilled enough to warrant getting it.

Ka?l wrote:

This is illegal, as long as UK is part of the EU.

I don't believe that is the case: they might have only advertised the jobs first in the local papers: that breaks no laws at all and, had few replied or been qualified the entire argument would have been moot.

Ka?l wrote:

True, but they first don't identify the real problem and next they ask for the wrong solution.

Pretty sure I already explained that.

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Dalek Dave

You are wrong to use the term Xenophobia, that merely means irrational fear of strangers. The EU is considering making Xenophobia illegal! (It is currently a crime in Germany!) Now, I assume that if Xenophobia is made illegal, they will go ahead and make Claustrophobia and Arachnophobia illegal too! I hope they make Hydrophobia illegal, as that is a nasty one! The trouble with people today is that the really thick ones are running the place. Orwell was right, change the meaning of words and people are easy to control! I don't think the workers are actually xenophobic. They are just Pissed Off at foreigners coming here and taking their jobs. More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment.

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Oakman

Dalek Dave wrote:

I hope they make Hydrophobia illegal, as that is a nasty one!

I hope they go after Triskaidekaphobia. So many people are afraid of the number 13. . .

Dalek Dave wrote:

They are just Pissed Off at foreigners coming here and taking their jobs. More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment.

Isn't having any national pride illegal in the EU unless you are French?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Chris Austin

I have just a simple question. Are the imported workers required to be paid as much as the local workers would be paid under EU law?

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KaRl

digital man wrote:

You've missed the point

By blaming non locals, they missed the point.

digital man wrote:

they might have only advertised the jobs first in the local papers

Why would the Italian company which won the contract would recruit locals when it has the competent people in its own staff? Why would Total limit the contracts to UK companies only?

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KaRl

Dalek Dave wrote:

the term Xenophobia, that merely means irrational fear of strangers.

Then I perfectly chose my word.

Dalek Dave wrote:

More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment

Nationalism is when hate for people other than your own comes first.

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KaRl

The reference text is this one: Directive 96/71/EC[^]: "The key content of directive 96/71/CE The Directive seeks to guarantee that posted workers will enjoy, whatever the law applicable to the employment relationship (see in particular the 1980 Rome Convention on the law applicable to contractual obligations), the application of certain minimum protective provisions in force in the Member State to which they are posted. To this end, Article 3(1) of the Directive lays down the mandatory rules to be observed by employers during the period of posting in regard to the following issues: * maximum work periods and minimum rest periods, * minimum paid annual holidays, * minimum rates of pay, * the conditions of hiring-out of workers, in particular the supply of workers by temporary employment undertakings, * health, safety and hygiene at work, * protective measures with regard to the terms and conditions of employment of pregnant women or women who have recently given birth, of children and of young people. "

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Oakman

pseudonym67 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/03/gordon-brown-economic-policy\[^\]

Excellent article. It would appear that Britain is as well-served by her globalist leaders as the US has been.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Chris Austin

I'll take that to be a yes :). So, is this enforced in practice? Does a roofer or mason from Italy get paid the same as a local tradesman when he comes to work in Paris? Or, are people paid "under the table" (in cash) at substantially less than their domestic counterpart?

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Oakman

Ka?l wrote:

The reference text is this one: Directive 96/71/EC[^]:

In other words, no. The British workers get the Union minimum; the aliens get the minimum wage.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Dalek Dave

Ka?l wrote:

Then I perfectly chose my word.

No, their fear is RATIONAL, they fear for their jobs, therefore it is not a Phobia.

Ka?l wrote:

Nationalism is when hate for people other than your own comes first.

Well, exactly, they want British Jobs for British Workers, that is exactly as you describe Nationalism. Xenophobia could relate to people from the next village.

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R Giskard Reventlov

Ka?l wrote:

By blaming non locals, they missed the point.

Again, pretty sure that; swhat I said.

Ka?l wrote:

Why would the Italian company which won the contract would recruit locals when it has the competent people in its own staff? Why would Total limit the contracts to UK companies only?

I didn't say they should, I said they could and there would have been nothing wrong with that either: it would have been more senstive to the local people. However, they are perfectly within their rights to cöck-a-snoot and import workers from wherever it suits them and upholds profits. Isn't it bizarre that, for a change, we are agreeing and can't agree that we are agreeing? You have to laugh. :-)

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Dalek Dave

No, they are required to be paid a wage concurrent with their home country, therefore undercutting UK minimum wage.

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Lost User

Chris Austin wrote:

I'll take that to be a yes

You would be wrong. Minimum wages means exactly as defined by law - namely the minimum your employer is required to pay for your labour. This is not necessarily the going rate for the job. However, pay "under the table" is tantamount to the "black economy" and should always be discouraged and is thus illegal, but that doesn't stop that happening especially in "sweat-shops" and undeclared "on-the-side" earnings.

KaRl

Chris Austin wrote:

I'll take that to be a yes

Not exactly - For instance, local workers can be paid over the minimum local wage, when the EU directive asks that paychecks are at least that minimum local wage.

Chris Austin wrote:

So, is this enforced in practice?

I don't know for UK, but generally unions are careful about it and don't hesitate to go to court.

Chris Austin wrote:

Does a roofer or mason from Italy get paid the same as a local tradesman when he comes to work in Paris? Or, are people paid "under the table" (in cash) at substantially less than their domestic counterpart?

If the worker is from Italy, (s)he could ask for the same wage than his/her french counterpart, or (s)he could go to court for discrimination. The issue comes when the worker works for a Italian company, he would work in France at the conditions of its Italian job, as long as it respects the EU directive. That could be less and sometimes way less than a worker working for a local company.

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