May the Farce be with you
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:jig: Repost! :jig: Repost! :jig: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=269551#xx269551xx[^] Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
Not quite, this one has different than the BBC link.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Not quite, this one has different than the BBC link.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
But the content is almost identical. It even starts with the same sentence. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
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But the content is almost identical. It even starts with the same sentence. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
Yeah but it gives us another chance to laugh at the Aussies. :-D Michael :-) Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
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"When made aware of the campaign, the statistics agency announced that respondents faced a fine of Aust. $1,000 ($540) if they were found to have given false information. In a statement Tuesday on its Internet site, the agency did not say if it would try to fine the Jedi faithful. But it warned that the Australian public ultimately paid the price for census-related pranks." It would be good if they did manage to fine everyone who put Jedi (excluding the few freaks individuals who actually believe they are). I know it would affect a few CPians, but it would be a damned good example to others who may be tempted to joke on a future census. As the agency said - a census is not a place for jokes, it is a serious and much needed way of servicing the people.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
What a load of total bollocks. :mad: If I want to put 'Jedi' down as my religious preference, that's my decision - IMO Jedi Knights are just as real and believable as the various gods in Christianity, the Ko'ran, etc. Besides, the same thing happened in the UK census recently - meaning that Jedi is probably a bigger worldwide religion (according the international census results) than many others. :D ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
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What a load of total bollocks. :mad: If I want to put 'Jedi' down as my religious preference, that's my decision - IMO Jedi Knights are just as real and believable as the various gods in Christianity, the Ko'ran, etc. Besides, the same thing happened in the UK census recently - meaning that Jedi is probably a bigger worldwide religion (according the international census results) than many others. :D ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
True, they are both based upon fictional stories, it's just that "real" religions have the shroud of time to make them seem more believable. Of course, like I said yesterday, who'd want to be a Jedi anyway. No love, No sex and a tendency to fancy ones own sister. :-D Michael :-) Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
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What a load of total bollocks. :mad: If I want to put 'Jedi' down as my religious preference, that's my decision - IMO Jedi Knights are just as real and believable as the various gods in Christianity, the Ko'ran, etc. Besides, the same thing happened in the UK census recently - meaning that Jedi is probably a bigger worldwide religion (according the international census results) than many others. :D ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
Religion may be a field open to interpretation, and certainly like you I share the same take on it, but entering knowingly flase information on a national census is in this country at least is quote rightly a criminal offense, and should be punished accordingly to try to prevent it from happening. There are very good reasons for even the religious information. Lying on such important data is a very, very bad idea.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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But the content is almost identical. It even starts with the same sentence. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
The content is not identical, nor do they start with the same sentance. The CNN article talks about it from the authority's pov, the BBC article was about entertainment.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Religion may be a field open to interpretation, and certainly like you I share the same take on it, but entering knowingly flase information on a national census is in this country at least is quote rightly a criminal offense, and should be punished accordingly to try to prevent it from happening. There are very good reasons for even the religious information. Lying on such important data is a very, very bad idea.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
In the UK, the only question not governed by the 'false information' law was the religious denomination. And rightly so - since to try and legally enforce it would be impossible (and daft). After all, since faith is totally subjective, who is anyone else to tell me whether my religion is valid or not? If I believe that the chair I sit on is a deity, and hence worship all seating furniture, can the goverment somehow tell me that mine is not a valid religious denomination?! The fact is, if the religious denomination clause in the Australian census was governed by the false information laws, then it is the authors of the census (or the law itself) which is wrong - not the citizens who choose to state their denomination as 'Jedi'. :D
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The content is not identical, nor do they start with the same sentance. The CNN article talks about it from the authority's pov, the BBC article was about entertainment.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: nor do they start with the same sentance CNN: More than 70,000 fans of the "Star Wars" movies have upset Australia's statistics agency by identifying their religion as "Jedi" during last year's national census. BBC: More than 70,000 people in Australia have declared that they are followers of the Jedi faith, the religion created by the Star Wars films. Ok, they aren't identical, but they are very close. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
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In the UK, the only question not governed by the 'false information' law was the religious denomination. And rightly so - since to try and legally enforce it would be impossible (and daft). After all, since faith is totally subjective, who is anyone else to tell me whether my religion is valid or not? If I believe that the chair I sit on is a deity, and hence worship all seating furniture, can the goverment somehow tell me that mine is not a valid religious denomination?! The fact is, if the religious denomination clause in the Australian census was governed by the false information laws, then it is the authors of the census (or the law itself) which is wrong - not the citizens who choose to state their denomination as 'Jedi'. :D
But we are talking about people deliberately entering false information, which is not the same thing at all. I am sure that Joe Bloggs the vicar's son from down the road entered Christianity on his census form in good faith, whereas Kiwi Colin entered Jedi knowing full well he was lying (for a start he has children and I don't believe he is married to his sister ;)). There are some things that should not be treated so light heartedly, and a national census is one of them - it carries a lot of significance.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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True, they are both based upon fictional stories, it's just that "real" religions have the shroud of time to make them seem more believable. Of course, like I said yesterday, who'd want to be a Jedi anyway. No love, No sex and a tendency to fancy ones own sister. :-D Michael :-) Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Michael P Butler wrote: True, they are both based upon fictional stories, it's just that "real" religions have the shroud of time to make them seem more believable. A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I think Jediism is a lot older than Christianity or any of the other religions practiced here on earth. :-D Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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David Wulff wrote: nor do they start with the same sentance CNN: More than 70,000 fans of the "Star Wars" movies have upset Australia's statistics agency by identifying their religion as "Jedi" during last year's national census. BBC: More than 70,000 people in Australia have declared that they are followers of the Jedi faith, the religion created by the Star Wars films. Ok, they aren't identical, but they are very close. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
Not really. If you were given three pieces of information (>7,000, Jedi and Australia) how would you introduce it? The content itself is also from a totally different pov. The only thing that makes this a repost is the general topic, and if that qualified as a repost then we should never hear about Microsoft, BT, etc, ever again. I could live with the last one... ;P
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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But we are talking about people deliberately entering false information, which is not the same thing at all. I am sure that Joe Bloggs the vicar's son from down the road entered Christianity on his census form in good faith, whereas Kiwi Colin entered Jedi knowing full well he was lying (for a start he has children and I don't believe he is married to his sister ;)). There are some things that should not be treated so light heartedly, and a national census is one of them - it carries a lot of significance.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
It all depends on your point of view. IMO, being a strict atheist, I cannot understand anyone who willingly takes on a religious denomination. Therefore, anyone who states a denomination is (in my opinion) talking rubbish. The point I'm making is that who is to say whether anyone deliberately filled in the form with false information when they wrote 'Jedi'? More to the point, can you be sure that there aren't a whole host of Jedi Knights out there who deliberately filled in the form falsley to say they were Christians? ;) The fact of the matter is that if people are lying about their age, then that's one thing. Buy lying about religious denomination is trivial and irrelevant... ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
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"When made aware of the campaign, the statistics agency announced that respondents faced a fine of Aust. $1,000 ($540) if they were found to have given false information. In a statement Tuesday on its Internet site, the agency did not say if it would try to fine the Jedi faithful. But it warned that the Australian public ultimately paid the price for census-related pranks." It would be good if they did manage to fine everyone who put Jedi (excluding the few freaks individuals who actually believe they are). I know it would affect a few CPians, but it would be a damned good example to others who may be tempted to joke on a future census. As the agency said - a census is not a place for jokes, it is a serious and much needed way of servicing the people.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: It would be good if they did manage to fine everyone who put Jedi (excluding the few freaks individuals who actually believe they are). I know it would affect a few CPians, but it would be a damned good example to others who may be tempted to joke on a future census. As the agency said - a census is not a place for jokes, it is a serious and much needed way of servicing the people. I'll nut the cunt that tries to fine me for answering Jedi. Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion. Also if employers can't ask me for this information when they pay me why does some government agancy have the right? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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David Wulff wrote: It would be good if they did manage to fine everyone who put Jedi (excluding the few freaks individuals who actually believe they are). I know it would affect a few CPians, but it would be a damned good example to others who may be tempted to joke on a future census. As the agency said - a census is not a place for jokes, it is a serious and much needed way of servicing the people. I'll nut the cunt that tries to fine me for answering Jedi. Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion. Also if employers can't ask me for this information when they pay me why does some government agancy have the right? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion. Amusingly, in the UK Census results, 'Heathen' came above 'Atheist' which itself was specifically named as a single group. ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
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It all depends on your point of view. IMO, being a strict atheist, I cannot understand anyone who willingly takes on a religious denomination. Therefore, anyone who states a denomination is (in my opinion) talking rubbish. The point I'm making is that who is to say whether anyone deliberately filled in the form with false information when they wrote 'Jedi'? More to the point, can you be sure that there aren't a whole host of Jedi Knights out there who deliberately filled in the form falsley to say they were Christians? ;) The fact of the matter is that if people are lying about their age, then that's one thing. Buy lying about religious denomination is trivial and irrelevant... ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
Mark Otway wrote: Therefore, anyone who states a denomination is (in my opinion) talking rubbish. The first line of my previous reply was: But we are talking about people deliberately entering false information, which is not the same thing at all. That is your answer. Mark Otway wrote: who is to say whether anyone deliberately filled in the form with false information when they wrote 'Jedi'? You are. Mark Otway wrote: The fact of the matter is that if people are lying about their age, then that's one thing. Buy lying about religious denomination is trivial and irrelevant... How is it irrelevant? I would love to see religions done away with tomorrow, but it isn't going to happen for a good few years yet and until then I am certian that religious people take their denomination as very seriously indeed, just as you take yours and I take mine (both athiest). It is unlikely in this specific case ("Jedi") but over here in the UK we have a big problem of hundreds of thousands of people continually stating they are Christians when lest the truth be known they don't even know the first thing about Christianity. This means that more Christian services are made available to these people, which in turn are never used, costing both the state and religious/community organisations money. Locally we have only just had another Christian centre close down. And all of this is because people lied on their census form believing it wouldn't matter. The data collected from the census is the only data that provides an acurate measure of the country, and is used by those that govern us to govern us. Taxes can be altered according to the data those bits of paper hold, and more relavently religious services could well be offered or removed. Maybe I am just old fashioned in my way of thinking, but I see processes like the national census as very, very, very important ones, both two thousand years ago and today. People aren't helping themselves when they whine and bitch because they don't have adequate services relating to themselves; when they tried to fit in with the rest of the crowd.
David Wulff
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David Wulff wrote: It would be good if they did manage to fine everyone who put Jedi (excluding the few freaks individuals who actually believe they are). I know it would affect a few CPians, but it would be a damned good example to others who may be tempted to joke on a future census. As the agency said - a census is not a place for jokes, it is a serious and much needed way of servicing the people. I'll nut the cunt that tries to fine me for answering Jedi. Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion. Also if employers can't ask me for this information when they pay me why does some government agancy have the right? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion If you were able to enter Jedi then you could easily have entered Atheist. :| Michael Martin wrote: Also if employers can't ask me for this information when they pay me why does some government agancy have the right? Well firstly it is used anonomously, but more importantly it is used to take a snapshot of what the populous is really like every ten years, and is used by the government in providing services such as social help, relavent services, community funded schemes, etc, and is used by businesses to provide the services you see in your local town or city. Employers would not need to know this information for the purposes of giving you a job.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Michael Martin wrote: Also if they wanted real answers they should have had Atheist or Jesus Hater as a valid choice for me under religion If you were able to enter Jedi then you could easily have entered Atheist. :| Michael Martin wrote: Also if employers can't ask me for this information when they pay me why does some government agancy have the right? Well firstly it is used anonomously, but more importantly it is used to take a snapshot of what the populous is really like every ten years, and is used by the government in providing services such as social help, relavent services, community funded schemes, etc, and is used by businesses to provide the services you see in your local town or city. Employers would not need to know this information for the purposes of giving you a job.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: is used by businesses to provide the services you see in your local town or city So what's the problem? They'll build a Church of Yoda. :) Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
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Mark Otway wrote: Therefore, anyone who states a denomination is (in my opinion) talking rubbish. The first line of my previous reply was: But we are talking about people deliberately entering false information, which is not the same thing at all. That is your answer. Mark Otway wrote: who is to say whether anyone deliberately filled in the form with false information when they wrote 'Jedi'? You are. Mark Otway wrote: The fact of the matter is that if people are lying about their age, then that's one thing. Buy lying about religious denomination is trivial and irrelevant... How is it irrelevant? I would love to see religions done away with tomorrow, but it isn't going to happen for a good few years yet and until then I am certian that religious people take their denomination as very seriously indeed, just as you take yours and I take mine (both athiest). It is unlikely in this specific case ("Jedi") but over here in the UK we have a big problem of hundreds of thousands of people continually stating they are Christians when lest the truth be known they don't even know the first thing about Christianity. This means that more Christian services are made available to these people, which in turn are never used, costing both the state and religious/community organisations money. Locally we have only just had another Christian centre close down. And all of this is because people lied on their census form believing it wouldn't matter. The data collected from the census is the only data that provides an acurate measure of the country, and is used by those that govern us to govern us. Taxes can be altered according to the data those bits of paper hold, and more relavently religious services could well be offered or removed. Maybe I am just old fashioned in my way of thinking, but I see processes like the national census as very, very, very important ones, both two thousand years ago and today. People aren't helping themselves when they whine and bitch because they don't have adequate services relating to themselves; when they tried to fit in with the rest of the crowd.
David Wulff
Sorry, but I just don't buy it. The biggest problem with all this is that the assumption is being made that people are lying on their census forms. Based on what? Nothing other than the fact that 'Jedi' is the name of a character in a well known movie. If I'd started an email campaign to encourage people to falsley state their religion as Christians, nobody would have suggested that the number of Christians measured in the census is wrong. As far as I'm concerned, faith is something that people choose themselves, and therefore the state should not pay for it. I'm all for social services, but I don't see why some subjective belief should come under that umbrella. Why should my taxes pay for the fact that somebody else believes they're a yogic flyer, or whatever? It's not like unemployment or disability benefit. The fact of the matter is that religious denomination is a subjective decision made by people. So really it shouldn't be on the census at all. ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
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Sorry, but I just don't buy it. The biggest problem with all this is that the assumption is being made that people are lying on their census forms. Based on what? Nothing other than the fact that 'Jedi' is the name of a character in a well known movie. If I'd started an email campaign to encourage people to falsley state their religion as Christians, nobody would have suggested that the number of Christians measured in the census is wrong. As far as I'm concerned, faith is something that people choose themselves, and therefore the state should not pay for it. I'm all for social services, but I don't see why some subjective belief should come under that umbrella. Why should my taxes pay for the fact that somebody else believes they're a yogic flyer, or whatever? It's not like unemployment or disability benefit. The fact of the matter is that religious denomination is a subjective decision made by people. So really it shouldn't be on the census at all. ________________________ http://www.webreaper.net
Mark Otway wrote: The biggest problem with all this is that the assumption is being made that people are lying on their census forms. Based on what? Nothing other than the fact that 'Jedi' is the name of a character in a well known movie. That is not the issue at all. It is not for the National Census to decide what is or is not false information - they must by law treat everything included on a valid form as fact, hence the results, but is is up to you to make sure you do not lie. And for very good reasons which I feel I have already covered in this thread. Mark Otway wrote: Why should my taxes pay for the fact that somebody else believes they're a yogic flyer, or whatever? It's not like unemployment or disability benefit. The government has a duty to govern us, and that in turn requires them to provide (either directly or indirectly) the services we request. If 1,000 people in a particular area state they are Christian when in fact they are not, then as far as the government is concerned they have an obligation to provide religious services for these people. If you still don't buy it, think in terms of medicine instead. If 1,000 people in a particular area state they have a vision impairment then the government has an obligation to provide services accordingly. Public passages and services would need to be modified accordingly, and probably local planning authorities would adjust their conditions as well. These things *do* make a difference. Mark Otway wrote: The fact of the matter is that religious denomination is a subjective decision made by people. So really it shouldn't be on the census at all. I disagree here - it is a very important piece of information to know. If not to cater for individual communities based on the people who actually live there, then from a national pov statistically. Race is another equally important piece of information to know for much the same reasons.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.