What should we (US) do?
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I certainly feel the U.S. is obligated to kowtow to the obvious moral superiority of the German people. The Germans have such a long and well established tradition regarding such concepts as justice and humanity, you know. They have a right to be proud of their history and traditions and to demand that others emulate their wonderful example. I feel our primitive and antiquated system really has a lot to learn from them - especially that cute little goose-step thingey they seem to have made so popular among the lunatic dictator crowd... I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: I certainly feel the U.S. is obligated to kowtow to the obvious moral superiority of the German people. It's not a question of "moral superiority" of the Germans over the Americans. I'm italian, so many of your statements about lunatic dictators apply also to me (intendes as part of the italian people) and I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes. If a country removes death penalty from its law it's obvious that sending someone in a country where he can be killed is not permitted. Every country and "people" have a history and this history is made of good and bad things. The important thing is to learn from the mistakes of the past and try to avoid to made new mistakes and, judging from the Germans I know and from my visit to that country, today's Germany is very different from the one you pictured in your message. The abolition of death penalty and the respect of human rights is a requirement for each member of the EU (also Turkey has to change its rules to comply). -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Reverend Stan wrote: I certainly feel the U.S. is obligated to kowtow to the obvious moral superiority of the German people. It's not a question of "moral superiority" of the Germans over the Americans. I'm italian, so many of your statements about lunatic dictators apply also to me (intendes as part of the italian people) and I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes. If a country removes death penalty from its law it's obvious that sending someone in a country where he can be killed is not permitted. Every country and "people" have a history and this history is made of good and bad things. The important thing is to learn from the mistakes of the past and try to avoid to made new mistakes and, judging from the Germans I know and from my visit to that country, today's Germany is very different from the one you pictured in your message. The abolition of death penalty and the respect of human rights is a requirement for each member of the EU (also Turkey has to change its rules to comply). -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
Vuemme wrote: I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Considering the number of people sentenced to death in the US who were later admitted to be completely innocent (25% in Texas during GWBs reign as governer) plus given the trial by television and politics I would agree with the german terms. Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? So yes, we know what its like having our civilians murdered. In fact, we know more about it than you (and I am not trivilialising what happened at the WTC or to the relatives of the people there either). Elaine PS Look up some of the pub bombings we had over here during that period. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
Well said. Ignoring the "respect" for the impeading anniversary I would say that some people - not merely US patriots - seem to believe that what has happened to the States is the worst crime since the Holocaust. Whilst they have had better lives safe in their own little minds of peace and tranquility, 11/9s have been happening all over the world since the day man picked up his first spear. As to the German terms, I too agree with them, and I would not expect any other country faced with a similar choice to make it any differently.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Vuemme wrote: I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of. I wrote "(our)" referring to the past to imply exactly what you said. I'm italian and italy was on the german side during most of the war and was ruled by a dictator, so I think that also my country has a part in the crimes of WWII. I know also that many people in italy and in germany fight against nazism and died for their ideas, and many other innocents were killed by nazi-fascist. After WWII we had a long period of peace in western europe and many people in France, Germany, UK, Italy and other europeans countries are tring to build a new concept of citizenship (the EU) that could take advantage of all the differences and the "black spots" of our past. WWII is history and judging people from things that their granfathers did is not a good way to build a relationship :) (I'm not implying that you've to forget what the did) -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Considering the number of people sentenced to death in the US who were later admitted to be completely innocent (25% in Texas during GWBs reign as governer) plus given the trial by television and politics I would agree with the german terms. Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? So yes, we know what its like having our civilians murdered. In fact, we know more about it than you (and I am not trivilialising what happened at the WTC or to the relatives of the people there either). Elaine PS Look up some of the pub bombings we had over here during that period. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
Trollslayer wrote: Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? Not to trivialize those killed by the IRA conflict but what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger. Well, the same must be true in the UK as well. Honestly, what terrible things are YOU doing to Northern Ireland and it's people that they feel the need to stike out at you?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Vuemme wrote: I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of. ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Trollslayer wrote: Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? Not to trivialize those killed by the IRA conflict but what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger. Well, the same must be true in the UK as well. Honestly, what terrible things are YOU doing to Northern Ireland and it's people that they feel the need to stike out at you?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? From what little I understand of this case, I believe this specific ongoing conflict is the time honoured tradition of fighting for land and independance, with a dash of religion thrown in for good measure. There are others here more qualified to discus on this. Mike Mullikin wrote: I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger Firstly let me just say that it annoys me no end that people continually choose to ignore the other instances that happened on that day last year - it is almost as if they are angry at the fact someone managed to attack New York, again, rather than the loss of life, commerce and freedoms that have occured since. :mad: Continuing; America as a country on the large and whole has the major problem of not taking enough effort to explain themselves and their intents accurately enough and then whine when they are either misunderstood or being treated unfairly. The world is a big place with just about every possible combination of conflicting stances and it is all too easy to cause more problems than you can handle - heck, we should be testiment enough to that for the rest of the world put together! You have special envoys and ambasadors - well use them, but more importantly allow them to work for you. No one state is perfect but at times it seems you make the effort to stand out as the little boy in the playground holding your middle finger up to the rest of the school and can't for the life of you understand why you get singled out for the cane. Understanding, stance and compromise are what will bring lasting peace to Northern Ireland, and I'll hazard a guess that will be the same elsewhere.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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David Wulff wrote: Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of. ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Assuming you have not in fact accidentially replied to the wrong message, what the hell has that got to do with what I said?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Trollslayer wrote: Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? Not to trivialize those killed by the IRA conflict but what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger. Well, the same must be true in the UK as well. Honestly, what terrible things are YOU doing to Northern Ireland and it's people that they feel the need to stike out at you?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Mike Mullikin wrote: what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? From what little I understand of this case, I believe this specific ongoing conflict is the time honoured tradition of fighting for land and independance, with a dash of religion thrown in for good measure. There are others here more qualified to discus on this. Mike Mullikin wrote: I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger Firstly let me just say that it annoys me no end that people continually choose to ignore the other instances that happened on that day last year - it is almost as if they are angry at the fact someone managed to attack New York, again, rather than the loss of life, commerce and freedoms that have occured since. :mad: Continuing; America as a country on the large and whole has the major problem of not taking enough effort to explain themselves and their intents accurately enough and then whine when they are either misunderstood or being treated unfairly. The world is a big place with just about every possible combination of conflicting stances and it is all too easy to cause more problems than you can handle - heck, we should be testiment enough to that for the rest of the world put together! You have special envoys and ambasadors - well use them, but more importantly allow them to work for you. No one state is perfect but at times it seems you make the effort to stand out as the little boy in the playground holding your middle finger up to the rest of the school and can't for the life of you understand why you get singled out for the cane. Understanding, stance and compromise are what will bring lasting peace to Northern Ireland, and I'll hazard a guess that will be the same elsewhere.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David, I never said the US was perfect, far from it. I don't deny that our policies are far reaching and can adversely affect others. Whether you believe it or not my comments had little or nothing to with the US. Elaine (and others) have gone out of their way in many threads over the last 9-10 monthes pointing out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks. That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. In this thread she brought up the IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and the Great Britain. I'm simply wondering if she is willing to accept her responsibility as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Assuming you have not in fact accidentially replied to the wrong message, what the hell has that got to do with what I said?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
If I read your response correctly you said that if we ignore the results of WW2 then we too are committing a crime. In a certain sense I agree. But to me the biggest crime of WW2 was ignoring Hitler as he amassed his military machine and started invading other countries. IMO the world (minus the US) may be doing the same thing in Iraq.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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David, I never said the US was perfect, far from it. I don't deny that our policies are far reaching and can adversely affect others. Whether you believe it or not my comments had little or nothing to with the US. Elaine (and others) have gone out of their way in many threads over the last 9-10 monthes pointing out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks. That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. In this thread she brought up the IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and the Great Britain. I'm simply wondering if she is willing to accept her responsibility as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. That is pretty obvious stuff - people (even mad ones) don't just condemn themselves on a whim. Mike Mullikin wrote: The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No? Of course, and we do (and have done every time a has bomb or bullet has killed our military personnel and civilians. One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
Trollslayer wrote: Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. I have friends in Northern Ireland. According to them the UK continues with some of it's actions even today. I wouldn't move on too quickly if I were you.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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David Wulff wrote: Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of. ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Vuemme wrote: I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
Ah come on, David. This is obviously a situation which calls for major sarcasm. I can't help but continue to be amused at Europe's (among whom I do not necessarily include Britain in most respects) continued attempts to redeem themselves historically at our expense. For the German's to pretend that their history has made them sensitive to "the cruelty of death penalty" is absurd. The pinnacle of 2000 years of European culture was Hitler and Stalin. I have seen no evidence that Europeans have learned anything at all from their sad history. All they have are centralized government solutions to every problem, and an never ending dependency on an entrenched cultural elite. The only Europeans who ever got it right were the ones who left. The German's can choke on their goddamned secrets for all I care. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with the prospect either. Especially a US invasion. I'm just stunned that none of the neighboring countries in the middle east, northern Africa, western asia or eastern europe seem to give a damn. If the US backs off (my hope) these are the first countries to feel the wrath of Hussein and Iraq. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I wonder why they don't do anything about it? If anything, terrorists have proven that a few people and a little planning can have very deadly effects. Until they actually do something on their own, they are still part of the problem.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Mike Mullikin wrote: That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. That is pretty obvious stuff - people (even mad ones) don't just condemn themselves on a whim. Mike Mullikin wrote: The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No? Of course, and we do (and have done every time a has bomb or bullet has killed our military personnel and civilians. One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case. I'm really not trying to prove anything. I read an article that I thought was interesting and posted a link, asked for opinions and gave mine. When Elaine (Trollslayer) brought up the IRA I wondered if she was willing to use the same logic against her own country as she does against mine. As proven by her response she does, but only a little. She seems to think the UK/IRA conflict is a thing of the past. Sadly she is wrong.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with the prospect either. Especially a US invasion. I'm just stunned that none of the neighboring countries in the middle east, northern Africa, western asia or eastern europe seem to give a damn. If the US backs off (my hope) these are the first countries to feel the wrath of Hussein and Iraq. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I wonder why they don't do anything about it? If anything, terrorists have proven that a few people and a little planning can have very deadly effects. Until they actually do something on their own, they are still part of the problem.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. I'm not saying we should ignore it. Hell no! But I don't think we should be reiterating it over and over again. It happened, and we must make damn sure it won't happen again. A simple way to do that is by exposing the fanatics at an early stage and enlighten the people. I don't think Hitler would have been so succesful if he would have shown his intents from the very beginning. Mike Mullikin wrote: We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. I imagine that the Iran-mishap is still fresh in the minds of CIA. Maybe that's why the attempts have been too light? Mike Mullikin wrote: I wonder why they don't do anything about it? I think it's a sign that not all muslims are willing to use their own lives in suicide attacks. If you do have the desire to live, you have to feel confident that you, or at least your children, will survive. 1) Iraqi people need means to overthrow Saddam 2) Iraqi people need to feel confident that they will overthrow Saddam If 1) and 2) are met, it'll just be a matter of time. Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. I know you paid the dues. But it took quite some time before someone made any attempts to stop the slavery. So please, let's not dig dirt from both of our histories, it helps very little. Can't we all agree to behave now and in the future? :) Reverend Stan wrote: I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. The problem is that we cannot just decide who's bad and who's not! We do not share the same cultures thus we don't think like them. Hell, you and me think differently enough to think that there is something wrong with the others country and constitutions. Can we really claim that the ayatollahs of Iran are bad for the people? Can we claim that Khadaffi is bad for Libya? This is where the UN comes into the picture. I think that the UN should be the one deciding whether or not a countries leader should be removed or not. Letting the worlds only super power decide is very much like despotism... Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!