Washington Post: HOLMES: U.S. backtracks on missile shield

[Lost User]

IMO if the system used in the United States was more equal it would be more just and might just have universal beneficial effects. As such, a true market healthcare system is as attainable as Perfect Capitalism (that's capitalism without those periodic financial crisis) and, in my view, that can't happen.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

With all due respect for the UK, exactly how much defending of the US can we count on?

If Britain wasn't fully committed to come when called, then Gulf War I and Gulf War II and post 9/11 into Afganistan would not have seen any kind of support from Britain. In fact, after 9/11, we came before you asked!

Oakman wrote:

status of civilized nation

True, very true.

[Chris Austin]

Didn't congress recently (sometime during the 'W' years) overturn a pentagon directed closure of a base in Puerto Rico? Wasn't the reasoning basically that they needed the income from the base to support a portion of the local economy? It's insanely frustrating.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Lost User]

Josh Gray wrote:

Oh FFS

Why FFS? If the US keeps its nose out of other nation's affairs and requires its military only to defend its own borders (like nearly every other nation) then we need less military (soldiers & weaponry) than we have today. No?

[Stan Shannon]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

From what I can see that ship has already sailed.

I agree. But all the better - its an overcrowed, unsound vessel, so it will soon sink and take most with it. Good riddance to them all...

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Chris Austin]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

If Britain wasn't fully committed to come when called, then Gulf War I and Gulf War II and post 9/11 into Afganistan would not have seen any kind of support from Britain. In fact, after 9/11, we came before you asked!

I absolutely agree with you. It seemed, before our civilian leadership decided that Iraq needed to be liberated, NATO was ready to bring hell to anybody who wanted a piece of it.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Oakman]

Josh Gray wrote:

Seems to me there is a lot of mutual benefit in us sharing access to the Pine Ridge installation

Josh, you're defending Oz against an attack that never happened. I didn't say that the Spooks R Us branch of the US government were providing a service out of the goodness of their hearts. They obviously think its worthwhile to maintain Pine Ridge. However, if we stopped worrying about the South Pacific, we could go home. The Oz could either pay the full freight or, as you say, give it back to the indigenes. AFAIK, Australia does not maintain any similar looking-posts in the North Pacific - while the US does. AFAIK, Australia does not maintain any looking posts in the South Atlantic, but the US does. etc. Out of some idiotic belief that we are supposed to be the policeman of the world. X| OZ is much smarter. You guys cooperate with us in your neck of the woods, maintain a much smaller armed forces than you would if SEATO didn't guarantee that the US would react to any attack on Australia, and generally let us take point while you open the beer. The only point I was making was that if the US decided to pull back its forces and focus on North America in exactly the same manner that Australia minds its own business, then the US would be better off. The icing on the cake for you guys is that we would get caught up in idiocies in the middle east that we kept black mailing you into sending a battalion over to make it look like we weren't alone.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

Why FFS?

Because I dont imagine that our discussion will be worthwhile as you seem to have what I consider to be an overly simplistic view. Sorry if I appeared rude, it was not my intention. I find the attitude that many Americans have of yourselves being the World Police offensive.

Mike Mullikin wrote:

If the US keeps its nose out of other nation's affairs and requires its military only to defend its own borders (like nearly every other nation) then we need less military (soldiers & weaponry) than we have today. No?

In an ideal world perhaps. In the real world some presence in other countries is required for your own defense. The example of Pine Gap that I gave earlier is an example of this.

[Stan Shannon]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

was more equal it would be more just and might just have universal beneficial effects.

Well, that is just fucking stupid, Richard. Its another shineing example of the utter, abysimally stupid principles of the left being forced upon us which I simply no longer have any tolerance for. You fools are destroying our civilization. Any thing that is guaranteed to be "equal" is guaranteed to be equally bad. It means no freedom of choice. It means no freedom period. I'm supposed to give up my freedom because other people cannot handle their own. Freedom, by definition, means inequality of results and outcomes. If you can't handle that, humble yourself to the mercy of my christian charity, or get the fuck out of America.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

kept black mailing you into sending a battalion over to make it look like we weren't alone

Thats because you know our beer is better and that we'll bring a case or two for you guys. On a more serious note I think you'll find the Australia SAS' contribution in Iraq and Afghanistan was quite significant

[Lost User]

NATO is supposed to be a coalition of the willing for mutual defence. But, as shown by the willing for combat duties in Afghanistan, NATO may as well not exist. Only Canada, UK and USA seem to be holding up their membership card of NATO with any degree of honour.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

It should be interesting to see what happens after the US social welfare state eliminates that protection for them

Oh don't be so harsh. After all they gave us Bill Shatner.

Stan Shannon wrote:

will just kick their asses and take over again

My impression is that the Canadians, one on one, are just as tough as the Americans. I was simply pointing out that they knew they didn't have to spend any money on their defense so they didn't. Why should they? If we stop, they will start.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

would not have seen any kind of support from Britain

But I wasn't asking about support. I was asking about defense of the US homeland to match the defense of the UK that our bases provide. It's not a matter of whether your heart is in the right place, but whether you have enough men and material to help protect us, if we are attacked.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Josh Gray wrote:

I find the attitude that many Americans have of yourselves being the World Police offensive.

Errr... because you think we should not act like we're the world police? Neither do I. I want us to stop. Or because you think it's OK that we have military presence in 130+ countries?

Josh Gray wrote:

In the real world some presence in other countries is required for your own defense. The example of Pine Gap that I gave earlier is an example of this. Quote Selected Text

I could more easily handle joint intelligence & command/control installations like Pine Gap if there weren't so many other bad examples.

[Oakman]

Chris Austin wrote:

Wasn't the reasoning basically that they needed the income from the base to support a portion of the local economy

I remember something of that - and every closure of every base even within this country is bitterly fought by the congressional delegation of the State that is losing a cash cow. My guess is that if the U.S. pulled all of its forces out of NATO (an organization than no longer has a purpose) a number of countries in the EU would be effected very negatively. Germany would be in danger of doing an Iceland.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Josh Gray wrote:

SAS

Those guys are scary. Like Delta Force only with backup. I wonder how many of them have gone into private security work?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

I wonder how many of them have gone into private security work?

No idea. They are pretty clandestine even within Oz. I've read a few times that they were among the first troops into Iraq months before war was declared.

[Lost User]

Personally, I wouldn't want to go cap-in-hand to any charity. It is demeaning. I am better than that. My family would deserve better than that. And if it means government taking a small amount of money out of my salary each week/month for the benefit of all citizens then I am quite happy for that to happen. Everybody without exception benefits. And these benefits I talk about are not supplied by "means testing" and the begging bowl never needs to see the light of day. As you say, freedom is the right to choose. And in Britain, I choose benefit of health care for all. Stan, I believe we both will never agree on what kind of health care is best. Thus, we must therefore agree to disagree.

[Lost User]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

I find the attitude that many Americans have of yourselves being the World Police offensive. Errr... because you think we should not act like we're the world police? Neither do I. I want us to stop.

Because you dont act like police in any sense. You look out primarily for your own interests as you should and as other countries do. Dont try and dress it up as some kind of charity that the rest of us should be grateful for. To do so is offensive.

Mike Mullikin wrote:

I could more easily handle joint intelligence & command/control istallations like Pine Gap if there weren't so many other bad examples.

Which was my original point. Your comment that I responded to... "In fact, I'd take it even further and pull ALL U.S. military personnel, hardware and bases from all foreign countries - Japan, South Korea, Germany, UK, etc... All of it comes home and defends our ports and borders." ... is again overly simplistic, misleading and nationalistic because there are examples of US military presence overseas that is very important to your own security. Suggesting that they are here in OZ solely as a "farvour" to us, your poor cousins is again offensive. For me to suggest that you should be grateful to us for allowing them to be here would be similarly offensive because there is obviously a direct benefit to us as well. And your assumption that you paid for the hardware is also most likely wrong, probably unprovable and further evidence of your own poorly informed attitude.

[Lost User]

Britain has nowhere near the size of armed forces that the United States enjoys, and you know that as well as I do. Consequently, we don't have the same quantity of equipment available at our disposal as is evident given my first sentence. But whatever men and materials there exists would no doubt be made available as part of your defence. And if I were 25-30 years younger, I'll be rubbing shoulders alongside you. Size isn't everything, but we would do whatever we could possibly do.