A fool-proof plan for economic recovery: [modified]

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

it can knock a fly out of the air at 20 paces.

So your eyesight has not depreciated :) [I ducks the water jet]

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

I'm sure he can give a better fuller explanation. But I'm not far wrong.

I am very aware of the tax advantages of incorporating. You have described the rough equivalent of what I understand about the accounting practices in this country, especially those in the books the IRS gets to see.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

So, for a business, it is tax efficient to lease.

That's why I used to drive a BMW. ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

So your eyesight has not depreciated

Actually, I have cataracts starting up and we are just waiting until they are bad enough to warrant peeling my eyeballs and gluing in permanent contacts. I didn't say I could hit the broad side of a barn with one. ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

BMW

Wonder what you might be forced to drive if the USA (and the world) went protectionism. With GM in all sorts of difficulty, it probably won't be one of their models unless there's to be yet another bail-out or two. OT This SB has been amazing this last few days. Hardly any nasty business from anybody. It really has been a pleasure to come here. :-D

[73Zeppelin]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

This SB has been amazing this last few days. Hardly any nasty business from anybody. It really has been a pleasure to come here.

Calm before the storm? Or is the new Masonic-Lodge nature of the Soapbox actually to our benefit?

[Stan Shannon]

Its Obama!!!!! :laugh:

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Chris Austin]

Synaptrik wrote:

Which really brings us back to my main point. That an economy is driven by demand, which equates to labor, which needs a manufacturing base to really thrive.

What you are refusing to see is that in order for a retail manufacturing base to thrive once again in this country one of two things need to change. 1) We siginificantly lower our way of life/cost of living. or 2) Consumers, have to demand higher quality goods and be willing to pay for them. You or I may want to pay for quality goods. But, I submit that the success of stores like BigLots, Dollar Tree and, Walmart paints an entirely different picture of the American Consumer's demand for goods. Once we stop consuming throw away products US based manufacturers will need to step up and outperform the competition. It's not something that can happen quickly.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[73Zeppelin]

Bingo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Lost User]

Although you can use the thumbs-up and thumbs-down symbols, there certainly has been a more adult feel to the place now that voting and message reporting can no longer be done. To discuss an issue with people who actually want to discuss issues has been made all the more possible. But that won't mean that there won't be reasons to have full bodied - even full blooded - arguments. Thus far a benefit and AFAIK, no moderators in sight, so, it does shows that we can behave like adults. :)

[73Zeppelin]

We should wear Shriner hats and pledge allegiance to disembodied heads.

[Stan Shannon]

I think competition at every level of society improves quality and lowers prices. I don't believe for a moment that there is any society or ethnicity on the planet that doesn't understand that, or cannot achieve it with a little effort. But, I don't believe that there is anything inherent in tariffs that encourages that one way or another. The only way that would work is if every society on the planet isolated itself economically from all the others and each one lived as a little economic island. But even then you would have regions within those islands that would be more or less likely to cooperate with the other regions and the same basic problems would still exist, so you would need further isolation, just as illion suggested. I just don't see it happening. You have to go in one direction or the other - economic unification or economic disintegration. Economic stability will never happen anywhere.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Economic stability will never happen anywhere.

With the right instruments in place, there is a chance of that happening. But defining those instruments will be most problematic, it becomes internationally and domestically political very quickly and can get very messy indeed.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Wonder what you might be forced to drive if the USA (and the world) went protectionism.

Any country that does not: manipulate its currency, have high tariff barriers with the US, enslave its workers, disregard the impact of its industry on the environment, or manufacture goods that are dangerous or deadly to use, should not be protected against. I'm not quite sure who-all that might be, but I suspect that most of western Europe could fit into that category - if they eliminated their own tariffs.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

This SB has been amazing this last few days.

I suspect that a number of us - myself maybe most of all - realised that we'd become the kind of posters we wished would go away.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

AFAIK, no moderators in sight

Which doesn't mean there aren't any. In another website for which I am webmaster, there are two moderators - neigher of whom is known to the rest of the members. I'm still betting on Rob. ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

Sure we will. Just as creating all those terribly expensive manufacturing plants during WWII fueled prosperity by creating new, high-paying, jobs.

The only reason that worked is because all the other industrial societies were dropping bombs on one another's factories. That same situation is never going to work forever. You simply create a condition where the guy screwing a bolt on a wheel expects to be as well paid as the guy who designed the car.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I think competition at every level of society improves quality and lowers prices.

I agree. But the field upon which the competition takes place need to be more or less level. When our industry "competes" with China's but cannot use slaves, spew sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere in ppt instead of ppm, or poison its customers with impunity there is no question about who wins the competition, is there?

Stan Shannon wrote:

But even then you would have regions within those islands that would be more or less likely to cooperate with the other regions and the same basic problems would still exist, so you would need further isolation, just as illion suggested.

I've already spent some time this morning pointing out that geographical isolation permits the use of trade barriers. For Indiana to refuse to trade with the state next door would be like Portugal refusing to trade with Spain. However, the average Joe who might cross a state line to buy cigarettes more cheaply, is unlikely to book a transpacific flight to Borneo to buy cheaper shoes. The trick with tariffs is to keep them low enough that it doesn't make great financial sense to smuggle them in, but high enough to give homegrown industry a fighting chance,

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

With the right instruments in place, there is a chance of that happening.

I am entirely pessimistic about the probability of that. I am completely convinced that the next century will see a fully established global economy controlled by a single political entity, or it will see the complete collapse of human civilization altogether. One of those two scenarios is inevitable. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it. The only issue worth deliberating is what the character of that political entity will be.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

The only reason that worked is because all the other industrial societies were dropping bombs on one another's factories.

After the war, that's true, but during it? I wonder if we were exporting all that much - asusming that delivering supplies to our armies is not the same as exporting.

Stan Shannon wrote:

You simply create a condition where the guy screwing a bolt on a wheel expects to be as well paid as the guy who designed the car.

It would appear that some folks (not talking about you) presently think the guy screwing the bolt on the wheel should be out of work - as well as the guy who designed the car.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Chris Austin wrote:

1. We siginificantly lower our way of life/cost of living. or 2) Consumers, have to demand higher quality goods and be willing to pay for them.

or We insist on a fair market. 1) We eliminate all environmental controls, the minimum wage, OSHA, the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, the FDA and all regulation of the Food and Drug industry, and any semblance of a free market within our borders. or 2) We establish trade barriers that provide the competition for the comsumer's dollar with a level playing field.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Stan Shannon wrote:

There is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

The collapse of human civilization doesn't need to happen unless we accept that war is inevitable, which begs the question, does it need to be worldwide or can it be localized/regional? Are we giving an open invitation to the 4 Horsemen to do their worst.