Enropean Union
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Michael P Butler wrote: This kind of stuff is why I'll be voting no to joining the Euro. I'd be surprised if Blair even dares take the isuue to the polls! Let's face it, with Rupert Murdoch in Fleet Street, there is little chance of your "average Joe" voting Yes - The Sun will start a massive "VOTE NO" campaign (along with The Daily Mail, Express, etc.) and that'll be that. If rumours are to be believed, New Labour will hold the referendum next Autumn ... if so, they have an uphill struggle on there hands convincing people it is in their interests. Just because people came back from their European holidays thinking "aren't the new notes and coins nice?" doesn't mean they'll vote for it. I am still in two minds - if joining the Euro really is in our best interests as a nation, then let's do it. I don't see New Labour trying very hard to win hearts and minds though. What will we get out it? Our economy is doing good, interest rates are rock-bottom and Sterling and the US Dollar are very strong currencies. Would the UK joining give the Euro the boost is obviously needs or would it f*** up our economy and leave us taxpayers subsidizing poorer EU countries? Big questions that need some answers - and soon!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
leave us taxpayers subsidizing poorer EU countries? We already do. We also sponsor French Farming which is the biggest sponge of Common Agricultural Policy spend and Europe has the audacity to complain about recent subsidies to US farmers. The CAP budget dwarfs this amount. The truth of the matter is that the UK and the rest of the EU are totally different. Our economic cycle is more like the US than the EU, our social and economic policies are different, we are 'low tax' (would you belive it!!) compared to the rest of the EU. To top it all off the EU has to go adjusting its rules for Euro membership because the countries already in the Eurozone can't stick to it when we already do! Euro: nope. X| not my vote (at the moment anyway). "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" George Best.
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Jorgen you're a swede. And IIRC, it's been a long time since sweden was involved in a war (even Hitler ignored you :) ). Meanwhile the rest of Europe has been unstable for at least the last 400 years. You seriously think that something like the EU will bring stability? You gotta be joking. Europe is inherently unstable. The EU is an attempt to impose peace but it won't work because peace only comes if there is stability which is an inherent property of a system. And Europe is definetly not such a system. Read some history and you'll know why. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Of course the EU has a political agenda, just like the Union had before the US became the US. But the 2 are fundamentally different. Each european country has a history going back hundreds of years and they've been fighting each other for just as long. That's a lot of historical baggage. The US has no history to speak of. What's more the US shares a (reasonably) common language and culture. On the other hand the English don't like the French, the Germans don't trust the French and everyone fears Germany. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If we keep up drawing lines between ourselves, we'll keep up getting pissed at eachother for stepping over the line. Then why not trim away the uneccesary lines? Yeah right! Obvious innit. As if redrawing some lines on a map will remove the underlying causes of war. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: But the 2 are fundamentally different. Each european country has a history going back hundreds of years and they've been fighting each other for just as long. That's a lot of historical baggage. The US has no history to speak of. What's more the US shares a (reasonably) common language and culture. But you can also look at that from another point of view and consider the different cultures of europeans countries and the different cultures and languages inside each country also as a richness. The US have a short history, culture mostly coming from the original countries of the immigrants, and a single language. That brought to a strong union, but also to a isolated country. I'm not stating that europeans are better than americans, africans, australians and any other people. I think that the EU is a great step to a peaceful Europe and it's a good chance to build a different and new model of society. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: But the 2 are fundamentally different. Each european country has a history going back hundreds of years and they've been fighting each other for just as long. That's a lot of historical baggage. The US has no history to speak of. What's more the US shares a (reasonably) common language and culture. But you can also look at that from another point of view and consider the different cultures of europeans countries and the different cultures and languages inside each country also as a richness. The US have a short history, culture mostly coming from the original countries of the immigrants, and a single language. That brought to a strong union, but also to a isolated country. I'm not stating that europeans are better than americans, africans, australians and any other people. I think that the EU is a great step to a peaceful Europe and it's a good chance to build a different and new model of society. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
Vuemme wrote: That brought to a strong union, but also to a isolated country It's called American Exceptionalism. And yes, the immigrants wanted to leave Europe and all that it represents behind. Unfortunately for them it's not as easy as they think. Vuemme wrote: think that the EU is a great step to a peaceful Europe Maybe. A bunch of politicians with fat salaries and even fatter perks does not automagically lead to peace. Just higher taxes. Vuemme wrote: it's a good chance to build a different and new model of society Hehe :) You think so? The French are trying to turn the EU into their own model of society (look at the EU subsidies for farmers mostly going to France) using other peoples money, as are all the others. The countries don't want a new model - they want to protect their existing Social Democrat one. However as you are italian I can understand that your country needs a stable goverment (BTW, how's Berlusconi as a PM?) so the EU could help to provide one. Only Italy could survive, indeed flourish, amid all the political intrigue you have. I am very envious of you italians: fine wine, excellent food, beautiful women, fast cars and great culture : you have it all you bastards :) Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Vuemme wrote: That brought to a strong union, but also to a isolated country It's called American Exceptionalism. And yes, the immigrants wanted to leave Europe and all that it represents behind. Unfortunately for them it's not as easy as they think. Vuemme wrote: think that the EU is a great step to a peaceful Europe Maybe. A bunch of politicians with fat salaries and even fatter perks does not automagically lead to peace. Just higher taxes. Vuemme wrote: it's a good chance to build a different and new model of society Hehe :) You think so? The French are trying to turn the EU into their own model of society (look at the EU subsidies for farmers mostly going to France) using other peoples money, as are all the others. The countries don't want a new model - they want to protect their existing Social Democrat one. However as you are italian I can understand that your country needs a stable goverment (BTW, how's Berlusconi as a PM?) so the EU could help to provide one. Only Italy could survive, indeed flourish, amid all the political intrigue you have. I am very envious of you italians: fine wine, excellent food, beautiful women, fast cars and great culture : you have it all you bastards :) Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Maybe. A bunch of politicians with fat salaries and even fatter perks does not automagically lead to peace. Just higher taxes. I hope that the EU is not only a bunch of politicians, even if I should recognize that its government its not a model of efficiency. I think that the concept of an united Europe is growing among the people of my age (less than 35yr old). We take the idea of working, travelling and spending "our" money in other EU countries as granted, and I think that younger people will consider that as the "normal" way of living. People who lived the WWII or the years of the cold war could be more cautious and some of them could still look at people coming from other countries with suspect, but that's going to became past :) Hehe You think so? The French are trying to turn the EU into their own model of society (look at the EU subsidies for farmers mostly going to France) using other peoples money, as are all the others. The countries don't want a new model - they want to protect their existing Social Democrat one. Thinking in terms of French, English, Germans, Italian interest are the wrong way to see the EU (and I'm ashamed to say that this is the one that the italian goverment has). I have more things in common with a 30 yr old programmer living in France, Greece, Germany, Spain or with a 65 yr old multimillionaire living in Italy? Speaking the same language is good (and I swear I'm tring to improve my poor english :)) but it's not the only thing. I hope that being European will be more important than being Italian (and our president Ciampi always states that he's European then Italian). However as you are italian I can understand that your country needs a stable goverment (BTW, how's Berlusconi as a PM?) so the EU could help to provide one. We need a stable government of this kind just like a fish needs a bicycle :) An italian writer of the '70s said that the situation is difficult, but not serious, meaning that in Italy we may have problems but we take them in a funny way :) I don't like our current government, I think that berlusconi is just like peron or other famous politicians known more for their appeal on people and ability to promise and lie than for their moral qualities. I think that some of the parties that support the government are racist and that their ideas will lead to isolation. But the majority of italians voted for them and I've to respect their opinion. Only Italy could survive, in
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: Maybe. A bunch of politicians with fat salaries and even fatter perks does not automagically lead to peace. Just higher taxes. I hope that the EU is not only a bunch of politicians, even if I should recognize that its government its not a model of efficiency. I think that the concept of an united Europe is growing among the people of my age (less than 35yr old). We take the idea of working, travelling and spending "our" money in other EU countries as granted, and I think that younger people will consider that as the "normal" way of living. People who lived the WWII or the years of the cold war could be more cautious and some of them could still look at people coming from other countries with suspect, but that's going to became past :) Hehe You think so? The French are trying to turn the EU into their own model of society (look at the EU subsidies for farmers mostly going to France) using other peoples money, as are all the others. The countries don't want a new model - they want to protect their existing Social Democrat one. Thinking in terms of French, English, Germans, Italian interest are the wrong way to see the EU (and I'm ashamed to say that this is the one that the italian goverment has). I have more things in common with a 30 yr old programmer living in France, Greece, Germany, Spain or with a 65 yr old multimillionaire living in Italy? Speaking the same language is good (and I swear I'm tring to improve my poor english :)) but it's not the only thing. I hope that being European will be more important than being Italian (and our president Ciampi always states that he's European then Italian). However as you are italian I can understand that your country needs a stable goverment (BTW, how's Berlusconi as a PM?) so the EU could help to provide one. We need a stable government of this kind just like a fish needs a bicycle :) An italian writer of the '70s said that the situation is difficult, but not serious, meaning that in Italy we may have problems but we take them in a funny way :) I don't like our current government, I think that berlusconi is just like peron or other famous politicians known more for their appeal on people and ability to promise and lie than for their moral qualities. I think that some of the parties that support the government are racist and that their ideas will lead to isolation. But the majority of italians voted for them and I've to respect their opinion. Only Italy could survive, in
Vuemme wrote: People who lived the WWII or the years of the cold war could be more cautious and some of them could still look at people coming from other countries with suspect, but that's going to became past I hope so. History teaches us differently unfortunately. Not to go back too far, although WW1 was devastating, less than 20 years later the world was once again awash with the blood of WW2 :( Vuemme wrote: Thinking in terms of French, English, Germans, Italian interest are the wrong way to see the EU Well if the countries themselves think in their own interest I think it makes alot of sense to see it from the same point of view for the simple reason that their actions/policiess will be informed from their point of view and thus to understand the actions a country takes we too must look at the situation as the country did. Anyway EU politicians are elected from within their own countries. A frenchman did not elect Blair. Therefore when the next election comes Blair (and all the others) will have to show something to their voters. Helping the people of other countries does not get u votes from people in your own country. Vuemme wrote: I have more things in common with a 30 yr old programmer living in France, Greece, Germany, Spain or with a 65 yr old multimillionaire living in Italy? I don't think so. Italy has differenet taxes, different immigration policies, different welfare state, different style of govt, different economy. The way you and an italian millionare think is still "italian" - you're the product of the same culture. A frenchman might not appreciate parma ham (or the new Ferrari: Enzo - very nice car) as much as you (or the italian millionare) do :) Vuemme wrote: An italian writer of the '70s said that the situation is difficult, but not serious, meaning that in Italy we may have problems but we take them in a funny way Typically italian :) Vuemme wrote: I don't like our current government I wouldn't call Berlusconi my fav politician. He's got too much control of the media. Look what's happening at Rai! Vuemme wrote: think that living here is not so bad I know. My gf has family living in Italy and we visit regularly (once a year at least). The norh of italy is the best :) I don't live far away: Malta. Ever heard of it? :) Vuemme wrote: P.S. your family
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Vuemme wrote: People who lived the WWII or the years of the cold war could be more cautious and some of them could still look at people coming from other countries with suspect, but that's going to became past I hope so. History teaches us differently unfortunately. Not to go back too far, although WW1 was devastating, less than 20 years later the world was once again awash with the blood of WW2 :( Vuemme wrote: Thinking in terms of French, English, Germans, Italian interest are the wrong way to see the EU Well if the countries themselves think in their own interest I think it makes alot of sense to see it from the same point of view for the simple reason that their actions/policiess will be informed from their point of view and thus to understand the actions a country takes we too must look at the situation as the country did. Anyway EU politicians are elected from within their own countries. A frenchman did not elect Blair. Therefore when the next election comes Blair (and all the others) will have to show something to their voters. Helping the people of other countries does not get u votes from people in your own country. Vuemme wrote: I have more things in common with a 30 yr old programmer living in France, Greece, Germany, Spain or with a 65 yr old multimillionaire living in Italy? I don't think so. Italy has differenet taxes, different immigration policies, different welfare state, different style of govt, different economy. The way you and an italian millionare think is still "italian" - you're the product of the same culture. A frenchman might not appreciate parma ham (or the new Ferrari: Enzo - very nice car) as much as you (or the italian millionare) do :) Vuemme wrote: An italian writer of the '70s said that the situation is difficult, but not serious, meaning that in Italy we may have problems but we take them in a funny way Typically italian :) Vuemme wrote: I don't like our current government I wouldn't call Berlusconi my fav politician. He's got too much control of the media. Look what's happening at Rai! Vuemme wrote: think that living here is not so bad I know. My gf has family living in Italy and we visit regularly (once a year at least). The norh of italy is the best :) I don't live far away: Malta. Ever heard of it? :) Vuemme wrote: P.S. your family
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I hope so. History teaches us differently unfortunately. Not to go back too far, although WW1 was devastating, less than 20 years later the world was once again awash with the blood of WW2 After WWI Germany was in a very difficult economical situation and that helped nazism to gain support from desperate people. After WWII the Marshal plan helped the european countries to rebuild their infrastructures and reduce the impact of war on economy and living conditions. Well if the countries themselves think in their own interest I think it makes alot of sense to see it from the same point of view for the simple reason that their actions/policiess will be informed from their point of view and thus to understand the actions a country takes we too must look at the situation as the country did. But you've to consider that what a country does is decided by the government and a governement represents only a part of the population (and in non-democratic countries it represent only the interest of few people) and a decision could be made against the will of the majority of people. Today's european government are cold about EU. Berlusconi, Aznar, Chirac and Blair are not "euro-entusiasts", but I think that many people in the EU (mostly young people) would like to see a stronger union that could be more influent than what the today's EU is (the Kioto's agreement on environment is a good sample of that). I don't think so. Italy has differenet taxes, different immigration policies, different welfare state, different style of govt, different economy. The way you and an italian millionare think is still "italian" - you're the product of the same culture. A frenchman might not appreciate parma ham (or the new Ferrari: Enzo - very nice car) as much as you (or the italian millionare) do You're right. We are product of the same culture. I'm Italian, I speak Italian as mother tongue. I can't change it. It's a matter of facts, just like saying that I've got black eyes or that I'm 185 cm tall. But this didn't define me as an individual. I got something from the environment where I grew up, like everybody, but other things can influence you as well (being in a rich or poor, large or small family, grew in a small village or in a large city etc.) and those don't depend on the country where you were born. I think I share more ideas and interest with people of the same age, education and economic condition from other countries than with people of different age,
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The EU is one of the most corrupt governmental bodies in the world. This kind of stuff is why I'll be voting no to joining the Euro. Michael Programming is great. First they pay you to introduce bugs into software. Then they pay you to remove them again.
Another interesting thread. My guess is that Britain will not go for full monetary union. I don't know much about Euro politics, but I think Britain basically is more comfortable throwing in with the US, Canada, and other English speaking countries... than they are with full Euro integration. I remember when Canada had that problem with Spaniards fishing in Canadian territorial waters, and they impounded a boat or something. Anyway, I remember the British representative wouldn't vote to condemn Canada along with the rest of the Euro nations. You get the sense that when push comes to shove, the US, Britain, and Canada have a bond that is stronger that the political/financial bonds that are being forged in the EU... and that amongst all the shifting alliances... they are basically in this together. Just my guess... JM