Oil -- EVIL; Nucular -- EVILER; Solar -- SAINTLY ... just NIMBY

[Ilion]

;) Fox, Politics: Feinstein: Don't Spoil Our Desert With Solar Panels[^]

[Stan Shannon]

Everyone should have seen that coming a million miles back. Of course, I'm sure she would be more than happy to fill up my Great Plains with millions of wind turbines.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Ilion]

Of course, neither wind nor solar has any chance of feeding meaningful amounts of energy into the grid. But it is amusing to watch "liberals" shooting down their own panaceas.

[Stan Shannon]

Not only that, but even after investing hundreds of billions of dollars in any such system, our energy will still be far less efficient and far more expensive than it would be using fossil fuel. Yet, because we are using less of it, the price will drop, and our competitors will be able to continue to use it - running their operations far more cheaply and efficiently than we possibly can.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Stan Shannon wrote:

running their operations far more cheaply and efficiently than we possibly can.

No change there, then.

Bob Emmett

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

our energy will still be far less efficient and far more expensive than it would be using fossil fuel.

T. Boone Pickens didn't seem to think so, though, admittedly that was when the price of oil was a lot higher.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Yet, because we are using less of it, the price will drop

If the price drops, China, indeed, will be glad. But Russia, Venezuela, and Iran, just to mention a few, won't be happy at all, will they? Look at the dithering that OPEC is going through right now - announcing that for the good of the world they aren't going to cut production and begging Brazil to join them. In all honesty, I think talking too much about the future of energy production right now is wasted...er...energy. The way the economy is heading, we will be able to keep warm and read at night by burning dollar bills.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

In all honesty, I think talking too much about the future of energy production right now is wasted...er...energy. The way the economy is heading, we will be able to keep warm and read at night by burning dollar bills.

I agree, but energy is likely to be the final nail in the coffin even if everything else is fixable. We simply cannot sustain a modern economy without cheap, reliable energy. And frankly, I think we are decades away from anything as efficient as fossil fuel, if it is possible at all. Any alternative must be integrated into the system piecemeal, based upon true global market conditions. A massive governmetn program to create an alternative market on a short time frame with bureaucratic oversight will almost certainly be catastrophic. Whoever ends up with enough oil to fuel a few divisions of tanks and aircraft will almost certainly end up controlling the world. Unless we just want to end it all with nukes first.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Venezuela is hurting at this moment. Apparently they are having to re-think their budget in a big way.

Oakman wrote:

burning dollar bills

There certainly is enough of them floating around and may soon become cheaper to burn than natural gas :sigh:

[Christian Graus]

The biggest issue is not morons who assume that there is a never ending supply of oil. It's not even how much energy we can hope to get from the sun. The big issue is that none of the alternatives, scale well. Sure, I can put solar on my roof. But, the environmental cost of creating panels for everyone, is as bad as using oil. Still, I drive a Prius. Why ? Well, I do like the car, but I think companies will look for ways for us to survive in ways that can be sustained, only if people are willing to pay for it.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

The big issue is that none of the alternatives, scale well. Sure, I can put solar on my roof. But, the environmental cost of creating panels for everyone, is as bad as using oil.

At least.

[Christian Graus]

Biofuel is just as bad. Fact is, there are no solutions that I can see, that will allow places like China, to enjoy a western standard of living, let alone to continue to support the West in that regard.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

The biggest issue is not morons who assume that there is a never ending supply of oil.

There is a reason we have to rely upon governmental bribes and compulsion ... along with false moralism ... to "encourage" people to recycle. It has nothing to do with "corporate greed," it has to do with the economic inefficiency ... the waste of time and resources ... which is the result of most recycling.

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

Biofuel is just as bad.

Of course; it's a scam. Anything which must be subsidized to make it "affordable" is not; subsidies merely force Person B to pay for for Person A's usage.

Christian Graus wrote:

Fact is, there are no solutions that I can see, that will allow places like China, to enjoy a western standard of living, let alone to continue to support the West in that regard.

The lion's share of fossil fuels go toward generating electricity. Nuclear power can take up that slack. Sure, nuclear is not a total solution, but unless we come up with something better, we will have to go nuclear ... or die by the billions.

[Christian Graus]

People are 'encouraged' ( in quotes ) to recycle because of inefficiency, and recycling also CAUSES inefficiency ? What does that mean ? I read a book written by a rolling stone editor, in which he joined several conspiracy groups and also a number of churches in the south., He reports that the congregation were told that recycling and the Prius are 'unAmerican' and it's gods will that they pollute, basically. I was left very depressed.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Yes, I see nuclear as pretty inevitable at this point.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I agree, but energy is likely to be the final nail in the coffin even if everything else is fixable

It isn't fixable. I cannot imagine any of the major powers giving up their fiat money. As long as they can all print up a couple of trillion without having to back it up with anything except a smile, they will do so. The end will come quickly once it starts, and I see every indication that Obama's and Bernanke's and Little Timmie Geithner's lack of foresight will bring it on soon. 2012 may have prove that Nostradamus was too optimistic.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Unless we just want to end it all with nukes first.

In another thread we came up with that particular battle being more likely one that Russia and China will wage.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

People are 'encouraged' ( in quotes ) to recycle because of inefficiency, and recycling also CAUSES inefficiency ? What does that mean ?

It means you're not trying to understand what I wrote.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

I was left very depressed.

Don't assume that Rolling Stone is a bastion of unbiased journalism and you might feel better. ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Apparently they are having to re-think their budget in a big way.

Someone made the point recently that when venezuala got in trouble they moved to the right; when the US did, they moved to the left. Not sure if that means anything but it's interesting.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

I read a book written by a rolling stone editor, in which he joined several conspiracy groups and also a number of churches in the south., He reports that the congregation were told that recycling and the Prius are 'unAmerican' and it's gods will that they pollute, basically. I was left very depressed.

The truth about the Prius[^]