to smoke or not to smoke, that is that question?
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'"The natural train of logic that follows from that is that then anybody that's admitted around age 65 or older that's showing any signs of sickness should be denied treatment," Pechacek said. "That's the cheapest thing to do."' The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50. Our medical costs are so high because we have adopted an attitude of "Who cares how much it costs? Give the patient another month to live!" This attitude holds true if the patient is vegetative, in extreme pain, or is simply disappearing into the fog of Alzheimer's. I have seen statistics that say that 90% of the money spent on a person's healthcare is spent in the last six months of his life. As a result medicare is expensive, private insurance is expensive, hospitals are expensive. And our taxes go up for no good reason. We would never put a beloved pet through the suffering and agony and loss of quality of life that we do our family. Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Our medical costs are so high because
1. medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
Oakman wrote:
medicare is expensive
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
Oakman wrote:
private insurance is expensive
because of: 1. cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
lost, remember that God is dead (check with Time, they had the annuncement)
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Maybe I should have, but still, surely thin and healthy people offset the cost of their health care more as well? What was the tax revenue from healthy people versus smokers?
Maybe where you live, but in The US, people over 65 get a very favorable tax rate. It is highly unlikely that your healthy thin person would pay in the $91,000 difference in taxes that their care costs, even over 10 years. More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive. ;P
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
You must have been reading Joh Scalzi's "Old Man's War". If not, you should. Good book.
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Maybe where you live, but in The US, people over 65 get a very favorable tax rate. It is highly unlikely that your healthy thin person would pay in the $91,000 difference in taxes that their care costs, even over 10 years. More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive. ;P
Rob Graham wrote:
More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive.
I can live with that. :)
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Rob Graham wrote:
More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive.
I can live with that. :)
I quit 2 yrs ago. I hope to live to recoup some of that.
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I quit 2 yrs ago. I hope to live to recoup some of that.
Rob Graham wrote:
I quit 2 yrs ago.
Ditto. Almost to the day.
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Oakman wrote:
Our medical costs are so high because
1. medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
Oakman wrote:
medicare is expensive
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
Oakman wrote:
private insurance is expensive
because of: 1. cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
lost, remember that God is dead (check with Time, they had the annuncement)
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
I quit 2 yrs ago.
Ditto. Almost to the day.
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You must have been reading Joh Scalzi's "Old Man's War". If not, you should. Good book.
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
So, what exactly is your argument? Religious people should be happy to die to save the non-religious money?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
Oakman wrote:
I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Perhaps they were God fearin' because of what they believed they'd done, and the consequences they suspected awaited them.
10110011001111101010101000001000001101001010001010100000100000101000001000111100010110001011001011
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'"The natural train of logic that follows from that is that then anybody that's admitted around age 65 or older that's showing any signs of sickness should be denied treatment," Pechacek said. "That's the cheapest thing to do."' The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50. Our medical costs are so high because we have adopted an attitude of "Who cares how much it costs? Give the patient another month to live!" This attitude holds true if the patient is vegetative, in extreme pain, or is simply disappearing into the fog of Alzheimer's. I have seen statistics that say that 90% of the money spent on a person's healthcare is spent in the last six months of his life. As a result medicare is expensive, private insurance is expensive, hospitals are expensive. And our taxes go up for no good reason. We would never put a beloved pet through the suffering and agony and loss of quality of life that we do our family. Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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click to article[^] I'd never considered that people living longer would cost more or even out the cost of smokers, but I still don't like going out to eat in a smoke house breathing someone else's exhaust. It partly why I never liked going out.
You just read an article justifying termination of human life based upon some kind of bureaucratic evaluation, and all you got out of it was something about smoking? :omg:
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Agreed. And if they are going to treat it that way, a want to see an amendment to the constitution providing for it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
What would you do then about those who get care and don't pay for it, regardless of whether or not they're citizens? If hospitals can't turn anyone away because they can't pay then what incentive is there for people who pay now to continue doing so?
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You just read an article justifying termination of human life based upon some kind of bureaucratic evaluation, and all you got out of it was something about smoking? :omg:
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
No. The way the article put the costs is what struck me. The article is about smoking costs not 'justifying termination of human life'.
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Oakman wrote:
And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
So, what exactly is your argument? Religious people should be happy to die to save the non-religious money?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Oakman wrote:
'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
Oakman wrote:
I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Perhaps they were God fearin' because of what they believed they'd done, and the consequences they suspected awaited them.
10110011001111101010101000001000001101001010001010100000100000101000001000111100010110001011001011
MidwestLimey wrote:
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
I'm not talking about not letting you drive on our roads, or letting your kids into our schools without charging you tution - or even breathe our air that comes to you courtesy of the Clean Air Act of ought two. However, showing up in our hospitals and demanding that we pay for your open heart surgery 'cause you lost that job, haven't got any income (and aren't paying taxes) entitles you to be saved by our safety net is beyond the pale. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface