A quotation for CSS
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
But any of the canned, boxed, or bagged goods that you buy without even thinking... Do you grab that box of cereal from the shelf and wonder if it's going to poison you? When you make coffee in the morning, do you test it for contaminants before drinking it?
Let's see... peanut butter, packaged salad greens, peppers, pistachios... this is off the top of my head, recent stuff. And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Sure, they're not doing much in the way of new development or improvements, and maybe things are different where you live, but up in the NYC area (Metro area, not just the city), I see constant maintenance and repairs going on... There's a lot being done to keep things running smoothly, even if all you notice are the big disasters.
I'll concede this one. It's been a long time since I lived in NYC (lived in Flushing for a while), but from what I hear it's one of the better managed cities in the country now. I think it's also true that this is not the case nationally. The report on the state of the highways and bridges that came out int he wake of the Minnesota bridge collapse was clear on that. And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. The Ares project is the ultimate example of their lack of vision and mismanagement - they don't have the nuts or imagination to do anything more than a remake of something already done 50 years before, and even then they've wasted every penny spent because they couldn't be accurate or honest about costs and timelines. It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. ... It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
I agree in part... NASA had the luxury of being able to research things that weren't necessarily for profit, much in the same manner that Google geeks do things in their 20% time that may or may not be productive. The private competitors are driven more by profitability. Now that I think about it, that might be NASA's biggest problem. In the old days, Apollo was top priority, so they were given tons of money and told to do whatever it took to get to the moon... Now they can't run a single off-track experiment without everyone whining about how much money they waste... Give them free reign again, and maybe we could get back to the old days. Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. The companies would regulate themselves to some degree, just out of fear of losing customers... But private enterprise is about profitability, so you figure they might cut corners here and there... Business is about taking risks, right? I think just the existence of the FDA might be encouraging them to step up their standards... As an analogy, most of us are, I hope, too morally-grounded to shoplift, but if you were ever tempted, wouldn't the security cameras make you think twice? Maybe those cameras aren't catching very many thieves, but their very existence might keep people in line. Maybe part of the FDA's job is to ensure that problems like that are highly publicized, and ensure that they aren't just cov
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LunaticFringe wrote:
And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. ... It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
I agree in part... NASA had the luxury of being able to research things that weren't necessarily for profit, much in the same manner that Google geeks do things in their 20% time that may or may not be productive. The private competitors are driven more by profitability. Now that I think about it, that might be NASA's biggest problem. In the old days, Apollo was top priority, so they were given tons of money and told to do whatever it took to get to the moon... Now they can't run a single off-track experiment without everyone whining about how much money they waste... Give them free reign again, and maybe we could get back to the old days. Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. The companies would regulate themselves to some degree, just out of fear of losing customers... But private enterprise is about profitability, so you figure they might cut corners here and there... Business is about taking risks, right? I think just the existence of the FDA might be encouraging them to step up their standards... As an analogy, most of us are, I hope, too morally-grounded to shoplift, but if you were ever tempted, wouldn't the security cameras make you think twice? Maybe those cameras aren't catching very many thieves, but their very existence might keep people in line. Maybe part of the FDA's job is to ensure that problems like that are highly publicized, and ensure that they aren't just cov
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
Absolutely! After Rutan demonstrated his reentry concept, I was really hoping NASA would look into applying it to their own problems; maybe trying to form some sort of consortium or something. But instead they announced the Ares thing, which was nothing more than government largesse for the big aerospace companies. And I agree with your last assesment of the FDA's role.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
Absolutely! After Rutan demonstrated his reentry concept, I was really hoping NASA would look into applying it to their own problems; maybe trying to form some sort of consortium or something. But instead they announced the Ares thing, which was nothing more than government largesse for the big aerospace companies. And I agree with your last assesment of the FDA's role.
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days. Just stumbled upon this interesting tidbit, linked from the Virgin Galactic article on Wikipedia: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/169943main_NASA_Virgin_MOU.pdf[^] So it looks like they've been exploring cooperation... Though that document is more than two years old, and would have expired already... I wonder if they're already exchanging ideas, and if we're just not seeing it yet because of the lag between design and implementation. You know how anything government-related is pretty much guaranteed to move at a snail's pace. One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days. Just stumbled upon this interesting tidbit, linked from the Virgin Galactic article on Wikipedia: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/169943main_NASA_Virgin_MOU.pdf[^] So it looks like they've been exploring cooperation... Though that document is more than two years old, and would have expired already... I wonder if they're already exchanging ideas, and if we're just not seeing it yet because of the lag between design and implementation. You know how anything government-related is pretty much guaranteed to move at a snail's pace. One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
That's the trouble with private enterprise, when it comes to science. The very thing that encourages them to forge ahead (Profit) is also what inhibits cooperation. Maybe NASA should gather together the various private companies and make some kind of deal like: 1) NASA facilities available for use by all members without charge, along with some amount of government funding 2) Everything gets publicized - No trade secrets 3) Patent rights are retained by the inventors, but said inventors are required to allow royalty-based usage by other companies, discounted slightly for members of this arrangement, and free usage by NASA and non-profit groups. So basically, they get to use the existing infrastructure, get some cash from Uncle Sam, and to benefit from each others' advances, but they still get paid for being first across the line. The taxpayers pick up some portion of the cost, but everyone benefits from the R&D. Wonder how well something like that would work...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
Leave it to DD to reference the Doctor :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
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Meh. Pretty ridiculous straw man. I'm all for a complete overhaul of the medical system, but I'm not at ALL convinced by silliness like this -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA. Or improperly approved drugs, forced through the process by pharmceutical companies and their lobbyists. Or faulty medical devices, inadequately tested and with virtually no meaningful government review... And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed. Nope, this is no less simplistic and silly than CSS's positions. Kool-aid for the fan base, but hardly a convincing argument.
I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I think the point of it is like this little movie quote from Life of Brian: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatHaveTheRomansEverDoneForUs[^] Basically, poking fun at the people who claim that government is 100% ineffective, while ignoring all of the ways in which it improves their life. It's all in good fun, though.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Very much exaggeration for effect. It took me a while to remember why it seemed familiar; a version of the original here was passed around for trolling several years ago. It took me a while to remember what to use as keywords, but I was able to find a the republican countertrolling version from the time. Technically I suppose I probably should update/redeact it to reflect shouting points that have changed in the last 4 years, but I'm not interested enough in political arguments to bother. :rolleyes: Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffee pot with water to prepare his morning coffee. Joe can afford the coffee because corporate loving rich Republicans exported our jobs overseas with NAFTA and CAFTA. With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His medications work because money-grubbing Republicans refuse to place price controls on drugs, thereby allowing pharmaceutical companies to earn enough money to pay for the extensive R&D and take the risks necessary to create miracle drugs. But the drugs still cost too much because government mandated health insurance has artificially increased the demand for medications with no one to police the prices, but that’s OK since Joe’s Bush-supporting bossman pays all but $10 of Joe's medications. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient, none of which are damaging to his skin because some animal-hating sadistic corporations paid some scientists to swab the shampoo in some poor rabbit’s eyes. Just for kicks. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some dollar-worshipping conservative developers built some nice houses with pretty yards 15 miles from the industrial sector of the city, and Joe drives his comfortable and affordable “Japanese” car made in Georgia without the inflated cost of union labor, and Joe can stop on his way home to pick up a package of reasonably priced T-shirts at the evil Wal-Mart, instead of having to park his car and take a filthy subway to pay twice as much downtown. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because his parents instilled in him the value of hard work so he studied when he was in school and learned that he could get by just fine without relying on the government. Joe's employer pays these benefits because Joe's employer doesn't Joe’s a valuable employee and Joe’s employer doesn’t want him to go work for his
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Very much exaggeration for effect. It took me a while to remember why it seemed familiar; a version of the original here was passed around for trolling several years ago. It took me a while to remember what to use as keywords, but I was able to find a the republican countertrolling version from the time. Technically I suppose I probably should update/redeact it to reflect shouting points that have changed in the last 4 years, but I'm not interested enough in political arguments to bother. :rolleyes: Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffee pot with water to prepare his morning coffee. Joe can afford the coffee because corporate loving rich Republicans exported our jobs overseas with NAFTA and CAFTA. With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His medications work because money-grubbing Republicans refuse to place price controls on drugs, thereby allowing pharmaceutical companies to earn enough money to pay for the extensive R&D and take the risks necessary to create miracle drugs. But the drugs still cost too much because government mandated health insurance has artificially increased the demand for medications with no one to police the prices, but that’s OK since Joe’s Bush-supporting bossman pays all but $10 of Joe's medications. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient, none of which are damaging to his skin because some animal-hating sadistic corporations paid some scientists to swab the shampoo in some poor rabbit’s eyes. Just for kicks. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some dollar-worshipping conservative developers built some nice houses with pretty yards 15 miles from the industrial sector of the city, and Joe drives his comfortable and affordable “Japanese” car made in Georgia without the inflated cost of union labor, and Joe can stop on his way home to pick up a package of reasonably priced T-shirts at the evil Wal-Mart, instead of having to park his car and take a filthy subway to pay twice as much downtown. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because his parents instilled in him the value of hard work so he studied when he was in school and learned that he could get by just fine without relying on the government. Joe's employer pays these benefits because Joe's employer doesn't Joe’s a valuable employee and Joe’s employer doesn’t want him to go work for his
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I think the point of it is like this little movie quote from Life of Brian: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatHaveTheRomansEverDoneForUs[^] Basically, poking fun at the people who claim that government is 100% ineffective, while ignoring all of the ways in which it improves their life. It's all in good fun, though.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)