Milton Friedman PBS Free to Choose 1980 Vol 1 of 10 Power of the Market [modified]
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Christian Graus wrote:
selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
I never said government is not needed. It is obviously illegal to poison people or to defraud no matter how the economic system operates.
Christian Graus wrote:
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options.
We are talking about whats real. 'The Jungle' is a book.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
Walmart is subsidized by the socialist United States and by communist China. Walmart doesn't have to pay their employees fair wages because those employees have most of their expenses payed for by taxpayers. In China, their centrally planned communist system is specifically designed for exploitation of slave labor by the iron fist of communism.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it.
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state With the Federal Reserve in control of the money and credit supply of the worlds most dominate currency, they essentially own and control the entire dollar dependent economy. Additionally with the recent bailouts costing taxpayers trillions of dollars (not to mention previous and already existent subsidies), it does not take a mathematical genius to understand that the government controls the means of production. General Motors is now Government Motors, the government is taking over healthcare (which has already heavy interference by government which is the reason why its broke in the first place), setting up a government controlled taxpayer funded broadband system, public transport, the list goes on and on. 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done This
Wow, socialist US, wow, then my home country is far beyond socialism, checking my tires pressure is free in my home country, I have to pay 75 cents here to do so, health care is free also in my home country, I have to pay for insurance here, universities are free also, you have to pay thousands of dollars in the US to get a degree; and the list can continue, and still I feel that my home country is very capitalist(I'm from Mexico btw), did you read the news? the new richest man of the world is from Mexico and there's more than one person in that list from Mexico. So having free health care, free universities, free air checks for your tires, subsized energy, gasoline, heating, unemployment help from the gov't, help for old people, single moms, etc makes my home country socialist? or a country that has a gov't that cares for its citizens? and still the gov't allows the banks to rip us apart with high interest rates... I call that capitalism!!! (and other things too ;P ), having the richest man in the world isn't capitalism?, otherwise how did he do all his money in a socialist country? Having education is a right not a privilege, having health care is a right not a privilege, these things that you call socialism are rights for every person, not only for the ones that can afford it and has to be a policy in every gov't of the world, many countries have already taking steps to provide free education and health care, to name a few, Canada, France, UK, and I don't see where's the socialism in those countries. I cannot deny that life in the US is more comfortable, the infrastructure is better, higher education is better (and very expensive), yes and that I'm here with a work visa to make money, capitalism baby!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!! but also, you need to ask why I got a visa and the job and not an american? I can tell you that is because your socialist country only provides a degree to the ones that can afford it, so every day less and less americans have the education required to have a decent and specialized job in this socialist country and world. I manage a team of 6 americans, how weird is that?, a mexican telling 6 americans what to do and how to do it in their own home country!!!, and I'm the only one with an engineering degree in the team. I know for a fact, that universities in this state are packed with foreign students, that are from socialist countries (as I understand they are supposed to be according to your theories), a socialist capable of affording expensive education, weird. Your rig
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit
Unless you're counting the opportunity to take someone else's stuff and sell it for capital to start your business this is so full of crap it's funny. Or are you blaming your own employment on that horrible socialist system that surrounds you?
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit
Unless you're counting the opportunity to take someone else's stuff and sell it for capital to start your business this is so full of crap it's funny. Or are you blaming your own employment on that horrible socialist system that surrounds you?
Horrible socialist system??? he had the chance to get a degree in one of the best universities of the world, if he or his family were able to afford it, otherwise, he only has a HS diploma (HS is free and they don't complain about it), a HS diploma gives him a 35K/year job, maybe 45K, but no more than that... or maybe he lost a limb because he needed surgery and he wasn't able to afford it in one of the best hospitals in the world with the best doctors, so now it's the socialist system of the US the one he's blaming
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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Wow, socialist US, wow, then my home country is far beyond socialism, checking my tires pressure is free in my home country, I have to pay 75 cents here to do so, health care is free also in my home country, I have to pay for insurance here, universities are free also, you have to pay thousands of dollars in the US to get a degree; and the list can continue, and still I feel that my home country is very capitalist(I'm from Mexico btw), did you read the news? the new richest man of the world is from Mexico and there's more than one person in that list from Mexico. So having free health care, free universities, free air checks for your tires, subsized energy, gasoline, heating, unemployment help from the gov't, help for old people, single moms, etc makes my home country socialist? or a country that has a gov't that cares for its citizens? and still the gov't allows the banks to rip us apart with high interest rates... I call that capitalism!!! (and other things too ;P ), having the richest man in the world isn't capitalism?, otherwise how did he do all his money in a socialist country? Having education is a right not a privilege, having health care is a right not a privilege, these things that you call socialism are rights for every person, not only for the ones that can afford it and has to be a policy in every gov't of the world, many countries have already taking steps to provide free education and health care, to name a few, Canada, France, UK, and I don't see where's the socialism in those countries. I cannot deny that life in the US is more comfortable, the infrastructure is better, higher education is better (and very expensive), yes and that I'm here with a work visa to make money, capitalism baby!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!! but also, you need to ask why I got a visa and the job and not an american? I can tell you that is because your socialist country only provides a degree to the ones that can afford it, so every day less and less americans have the education required to have a decent and specialized job in this socialist country and world. I manage a team of 6 americans, how weird is that?, a mexican telling 6 americans what to do and how to do it in their own home country!!!, and I'm the only one with an engineering degree in the team. I know for a fact, that universities in this state are packed with foreign students, that are from socialist countries (as I understand they are supposed to be according to your theories), a socialist capable of affording expensive education, weird. Your rig
Nice sig
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Horrible socialist system??? he had the chance to get a degree in one of the best universities of the world, if he or his family were able to afford it, otherwise, he only has a HS diploma (HS is free and they don't complain about it), a HS diploma gives him a 35K/year job, maybe 45K, but no more than that... or maybe he lost a limb because he needed surgery and he wasn't able to afford it in one of the best hospitals in the world with the best doctors, so now it's the socialist system of the US the one he's blaming
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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See, the horrors of socialism! And it's rather sad when even I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic anymore. But I have seen people blame someone not being able to get an education on socialism.
I can see the sarcasm :) but it's just the wrong idea of socialism and CSS (and maybe others) just don't see beyond their noses and just want understand what they want to understand and believe, like CG said, every democracy and every capitalist country must have some sort of socialism to control things, having the gov't taking care of stuff, create rules for the game, otherwise those bad and greedy companies will just make us go back to slavery, if we are not already there, . It's not bad to have socialized education, it's not bad to have socialized health care, people in the US don't understand the concept, but how, a country like the US, that spends trillions in wars can sustain a free health care and free education??, and that's what people is afraid of in the US, an increasing debt that gets bigger and bigger every day to keep wars going, a debt that is owned by China and other countries, people already paying large sums of their paychecks in taxes, Getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan, close some bases you have around the world, and you will see how much money you will save and still be the number one military power in the world, enough money to pay the debt in the next 10 to 15 years and if not pay it at least reduce it, have free health care and free education that will not make the gov't increase the taxes. So far 1.05 trillion have been allocated just for Iraq, 172 billion for Afghanistan... 1.22 trillion dollars in wars, 12.5 trillion is the debt and increasing, using CSS theory of gold, so far, in human history, only 161,000 tons of gold have been produced, equivalent to less than 6 trillion USD, in human history!!, 5000+ years of recorded history, not enough to pay current US debt, and that gold is not in the US or owned by the US, its owned by other countries like India, China, UK, here's the article ---> Gold[^] the same happens with silver, not enough, and here is an interesting clock that calculates the debt live ---> US Debt[^] So they get the idea that socialized services are bad, when they don't look behind their backs and see how many socialized things they have already in the US, heck, health care is socialized, they receive funds from the gov't!!! education up to high school is free!!! universities receive funds from the gov't too!!!,
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Nice sig
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I can see the sarcasm :) but it's just the wrong idea of socialism and CSS (and maybe others) just don't see beyond their noses and just want understand what they want to understand and believe, like CG said, every democracy and every capitalist country must have some sort of socialism to control things, having the gov't taking care of stuff, create rules for the game, otherwise those bad and greedy companies will just make us go back to slavery, if we are not already there, . It's not bad to have socialized education, it's not bad to have socialized health care, people in the US don't understand the concept, but how, a country like the US, that spends trillions in wars can sustain a free health care and free education??, and that's what people is afraid of in the US, an increasing debt that gets bigger and bigger every day to keep wars going, a debt that is owned by China and other countries, people already paying large sums of their paychecks in taxes, Getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan, close some bases you have around the world, and you will see how much money you will save and still be the number one military power in the world, enough money to pay the debt in the next 10 to 15 years and if not pay it at least reduce it, have free health care and free education that will not make the gov't increase the taxes. So far 1.05 trillion have been allocated just for Iraq, 172 billion for Afghanistan... 1.22 trillion dollars in wars, 12.5 trillion is the debt and increasing, using CSS theory of gold, so far, in human history, only 161,000 tons of gold have been produced, equivalent to less than 6 trillion USD, in human history!!, 5000+ years of recorded history, not enough to pay current US debt, and that gold is not in the US or owned by the US, its owned by other countries like India, China, UK, here's the article ---> Gold[^] the same happens with silver, not enough, and here is an interesting clock that calculates the debt live ---> US Debt[^] So they get the idea that socialized services are bad, when they don't look behind their backs and see how many socialized things they have already in the US, heck, health care is socialized, they receive funds from the gov't!!! education up to high school is free!!! universities receive funds from the gov't too!!!,
Gonzoox wrote:
but how, a country like the US, that spends trillions in wars can sustain a free health care and free education??
I've suggested that we should start pillaging doctors and teachers. Generally after I suggest we stop trying to police the world, cut the massive military bloat loose, and generally stop investing more money in a military than any other three nations in the world. Oddly enough the folks we're talking about don't like either one. But then, if the people we're talking about could find their own asses with both hands and a search crew they may actually be able to understand that they've benefited from the fact that this country does have socialist policies, and that no matter how afraid of them they may think they are, they use them on a daily basis. Oh, and if you really want to piss them off, get some of the statistics on how a public option for health insurance would actually allow for better care, lower premiums and better administration simply by the fact that they government isn't in it for profit. Toss in the far wider risk pool than any single provider could claim and then the drains even from those with serious conditions become nearly marginal. It's quite difficult to argue with statistics when the basic logic behind them is actually sound, so they resort to "Socialism is evil". It's a lot easier. That, or they argue that they don't want their health care run by the DMV. Having dealt with both health insurers and the DMV, I'll take the DMV.
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Gonzoox wrote:
but how, a country like the US, that spends trillions in wars can sustain a free health care and free education??
I've suggested that we should start pillaging doctors and teachers. Generally after I suggest we stop trying to police the world, cut the massive military bloat loose, and generally stop investing more money in a military than any other three nations in the world. Oddly enough the folks we're talking about don't like either one. But then, if the people we're talking about could find their own asses with both hands and a search crew they may actually be able to understand that they've benefited from the fact that this country does have socialist policies, and that no matter how afraid of them they may think they are, they use them on a daily basis. Oh, and if you really want to piss them off, get some of the statistics on how a public option for health insurance would actually allow for better care, lower premiums and better administration simply by the fact that they government isn't in it for profit. Toss in the far wider risk pool than any single provider could claim and then the drains even from those with serious conditions become nearly marginal. It's quite difficult to argue with statistics when the basic logic behind them is actually sound, so they resort to "Socialism is evil". It's a lot easier. That, or they argue that they don't want their health care run by the DMV. Having dealt with both health insurers and the DMV, I'll take the DMV.
Distind wrote:
I'll take the DMV.
I won't, they made sure to give me hell when I tried to get my driver's license, I got to the country, I went to the SS office to get my SSN, got a letter saying that it would take around 3 weeks, ok, I have a letter saying that I will get it, so I go to the DMV, ask for a license, they ask me for an ID, showed my passport and visa, so good so far, then asked me for the SSN, I showed the lady my letter, she said no, she wanted the number, so I told her that the law says that I can get the license with the documents that show my legal stay in the country, she didn't care, so I had to wait 3 weeks 'til I got the SSN. I went again, ID, handed passport and visa, SSN, ha, in your face lady!!! here it is!!!, Proof of insurance, erm, I'm not paying the insurance yet until I can pick up my car, to pick up my car I need my license, well, no license until you bring your proof of insurance, so I called the agent, paid the insurance and return the next day, finally, I did all the tests, and was ready to walk out with my license, WRONG!!!! 20 days to get it by mail. So when it finally arrived I was already doing my 3rd payment of the car, second payment of the insurance!!! so no, if that's how the DMV is going to work health I rather fly back to my country :P
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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Distind wrote:
I'll take the DMV.
I won't, they made sure to give me hell when I tried to get my driver's license, I got to the country, I went to the SS office to get my SSN, got a letter saying that it would take around 3 weeks, ok, I have a letter saying that I will get it, so I go to the DMV, ask for a license, they ask me for an ID, showed my passport and visa, so good so far, then asked me for the SSN, I showed the lady my letter, she said no, she wanted the number, so I told her that the law says that I can get the license with the documents that show my legal stay in the country, she didn't care, so I had to wait 3 weeks 'til I got the SSN. I went again, ID, handed passport and visa, SSN, ha, in your face lady!!! here it is!!!, Proof of insurance, erm, I'm not paying the insurance yet until I can pick up my car, to pick up my car I need my license, well, no license until you bring your proof of insurance, so I called the agent, paid the insurance and return the next day, finally, I did all the tests, and was ready to walk out with my license, WRONG!!!! 20 days to get it by mail. So when it finally arrived I was already doing my 3rd payment of the car, second payment of the insurance!!! so no, if that's how the DMV is going to work health I rather fly back to my country :P
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
Gonzoox wrote:
So when it finally arrived I was already doing my 3rd payment of the car, second payment of the insurance!!! so no, if that's how the DMV is going to work health I rather fly back to my country :P
Wait till you have to deal with our health insurance. It's actually worse.