Well it seems I was wrong
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It's not the really majority voting system that is to blame, but the splitting of the parties in the 1976-1978 timeframe. Before that we had 3 large bilingual parties (Christian democrats, socialists and liberals), who formed coalition governments (2 against one), and all was well. With the creation of the language communities, those 3 parties split in single-language parties on both sides of the language barrier, and pretty soon the relation between parties who had been allies began to sour. Add to that the emergence of nationalist parties on both sides of the language barrier (dutch: Volksunie, now defunct, Spirit, now defunct (well, still moving a bit, but the worms are the carcass), and more importantly Vlaams Blok (now Vlaams belang) racist and extreme nationalist, and N-VA (a re-incarnation of the right wing of the Volksunie, not racist, but strong Nationalist; On the French Side, FDF (now part of the french liberal party), and Rassemblement Wallon) The French Socialists became very friendly with French-speaking nationalists (The Happart question and the splitting of Voeren-Fourons), while the Dutch Christian Democrats became very friendly with the Dutch Nationalists. Dutch Nationalists came mostly from collaborator families during WWII (they thought Hitler was going to give them their own State), and where usually strong catholics. To make a long story short, we currently have 8? 9? parties who must form a coalition government, while respecting the voters opinion, juggling language parities and political families. Meanwhile voters are heavily influenced by the nationalist parties(the power of the simple message), and will down-vote any politician who does not take a strong enough stand against the other language community. So the country is subject to a huge polarisation, and a myriad of parties at the federal level, which makes the situation unworkable. In the 2000-2008 area, we had coalition governments that were composed of Liberals and Socialists, who were not historically inclined to be nationalists. (The liberals cared about money and business, the socialists cared about Social Security). Unfortunately, they lost the vote, and a government composed of Christian Democrats and nationalists was put in place a couple of years ago. They put the whole language question back on the agenda, and this has caused the current government to be disbanded and reformed 4 or 5 times during the last two years (not always about nationalist questions, they had the decency to stumble once on the banking crisis
:omg: Your knowledge about politics far exceeds mine (but I guess that's normal since my knowledge is very limited :) )
Michel Godfroid wrote:
Joke alert: In Brussels, when walking in the area of the parliament, you should greet every one with 'your excellency', because there's 70% chance that you're talking to a minister.
Well I don't know about 'your excellency', there are a few other terms I'd like to call them but that would be in violation of the KSS rule of the lounge ;P
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Thanks for taking the time to write that. It was very interesting to read. I can see how the language issue provides a natural line for the parties to split, but the voting system and its tendency to produce coalition governments presumably went some way to allowing these splits to occur? The system we have here is very unfair in terms of allowing individuals a voice but it does ensure that the government is strong and also moderate. If a party were to split then one or both of the resulting parties would be virtually annihilated. It also keeps the nationalists and single-issue parties weak because although a lot of people support them there are still enough people who don't to keep them out.
A first past the post system would not work in Belgium, because there are areas (the whole of Brussels), where this would cause one or the other language community not be represented ( actually, it would exclude Dutch speakers from ever being elected). On the other hand, with the polarising forces now in place, it places too much emphasis on a single politician. To give you an example: although the NV-A (Flemish nationalists) only commands around 20% of the vote in Flanders, it's president Bart De Wever is easily voted on top of the popularity ratings. The first past the post system also causes successive governments to swing wildly in one direction or another. (Tony Blair spent his first years undoing what Margaret Thatcher (and what's his face? John Major )realised, as David Cameron will reverse engine's on the last governments direction. (not necessarily a bad thing :-) ) A proportional representation system has the advantage of creating stable long-term policies (because one of the previous parties almost always participates in the next government), while first past the post enables decisive and swift action, but is nearly always short sighed (and based on electoral success in the next election) We see the same thing in business today: companies implement quarterly strategies to please the shareholders and the stock markets, while the long term-goals are left to the CEO's successor (after this one cashes his bonus, of course), all for the voters (shareholders) immediate short-sighted goals.
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Michel Godfroid wrote:
Any nice countries for an ageing developer to emigrate to? (will code for food).
Australia! I've recently moved the family from Sydney to Amsterdam. It's five years since I last lived here and I'd forgotten how racist and nationalistic people seem over here.
Josh Gray wrote:
Amsterdam
Josh Gray wrote:
racist and nationalistic people
:confused: Really?
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
:omg: Your knowledge about politics far exceeds mine (but I guess that's normal since my knowledge is very limited :) )
Michel Godfroid wrote:
Joke alert: In Brussels, when walking in the area of the parliament, you should greet every one with 'your excellency', because there's 70% chance that you're talking to a minister.
Well I don't know about 'your excellency', there are a few other terms I'd like to call them but that would be in violation of the KSS rule of the lounge ;P
Tom Deketelaere wrote:
there are a few other terms I'd like to call them but that would be in violation of the KSS rule of the lounge
Just use Dutch; Chris won't be the wiser... :laugh:
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Josh Gray wrote:
Amsterdam
Josh Gray wrote:
racist and nationalistic people
:confused: Really?
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
About the Belgians not voting in June. The Dutch speaking parties seem to have a consensus on pushing through an arrangement for BHV BEFORE the election. This could well mean the end of Monarchy, and the creation of a confederate state. Extremism, language racism, and petty nationalism will have won. Any nice countries for an ageing developer to emigrate to? (will code for food).
Screw monarchies. Surely you can move to France/the Netherlands (depending on whether your native language is French or Dutch) though? (Or Germany, IIRC there's a small community of German-speaking Belgians too.)
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
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Screw monarchies. Surely you can move to France/the Netherlands (depending on whether your native language is French or Dutch) though? (Or Germany, IIRC there's a small community of German-speaking Belgians too.)
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Screw monarchies.
Sure I don't like them a bit either. But it's the only thing that holds the country together. Because the king/queen has to be (or appear to be) impartial, he's the one who appoint ministers. If we had a president, he would always be Dutch-speaking, and perceived as partial. (6-million Flemish speakers beat 4 Million French Speakers)
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Surely you can move to France/the Netherlands (depending on whether your native language is French or Dutch)
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
there's a small community of German-speaking Belgians too
I love'm ! They're the only ones who never cause any trouble!
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Screw monarchies.
Sure I don't like them a bit either. But it's the only thing that holds the country together. Because the king/queen has to be (or appear to be) impartial, he's the one who appoint ministers. If we had a president, he would always be Dutch-speaking, and perceived as partial. (6-million Flemish speakers beat 4 Million French Speakers)
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Surely you can move to France/the Netherlands (depending on whether your native language is French or Dutch)
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
there's a small community of German-speaking Belgians too
I love'm ! They're the only ones who never cause any trouble!
Is the royal family Dutch- or French-speaking?
Michel Godfroid wrote:
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
Europe has plenty of microstates and exclaves. One more of either would hardly make a difference.
Michel Godfroid wrote:
I love'm ! They're the only ones who never cause any trouble!
Wow, so there are Europeans who love Germans after all! :) (Just kidding, I love Germany myself.) I'm hardly the one to thump my chest about my country, but we seem to do a better job than Belgians. You have three languages (really, it's just two), we have 22 official languages and over a thousand in all. We're a third world country with a staggering 450 *million* illiterates (that is comparable to the entire population of Europe), and frankly, we seem to do a better job of holding our country together. Having said that, I'd be happy to have all the politicians in the world shot - Indian, Belgian, or Argentinian! :)
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Screw monarchies.
Sure I don't like them a bit either. But it's the only thing that holds the country together. Because the king/queen has to be (or appear to be) impartial, he's the one who appoint ministers. If we had a president, he would always be Dutch-speaking, and perceived as partial. (6-million Flemish speakers beat 4 Million French Speakers)
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Surely you can move to France/the Netherlands (depending on whether your native language is French or Dutch)
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
there's a small community of German-speaking Belgians too
I love'm ! They're the only ones who never cause any trouble!
Michel Godfroid wrote:
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
With all the eurocrats there I'd suggest building an indestructible thousand mile high wall around it and filling it with water. Purging a concentration of politicians/burro-crats that dense would do the rest of the planet a great service. :laugh:
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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Michel Godfroid wrote:
An what do we do with Brussels, which is a bilingual island in the middle (Well, on the edge, but it's completely enclosed) of Flanders?
With all the eurocrats there I'd suggest building an indestructible thousand mile high wall around it and filling it with water. Purging a concentration of politicians/burro-crats that dense would do the rest of the planet a great service. :laugh:
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
Hey, I live there! get me a green card first...
