How can I prove I'm not like the fools that surround me? [RANT] [modified]
-
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
-
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
-
This is a big problem with web development and, to be honest, why I would advise anyone againt doing it. One question - why don't they take up the references you offer?
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
They do, but everyone has at least a few good references they can offer, which makes it somewhat moot. I would never hire a developer without good references, but you have to put very little weight on them. Anyone they offer as a reference will give a gleaming review.
-
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
Mike Marynowski wrote:
EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
I was going to say something, but I didn't want to seem overly picky ;P
-
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
Wear a suit.
-
Wear a suit.
In most cases, yes, wear a suit is good advice. We are pretty damn casual around the office, but always dress up for meetings. Depending on who the client is, if you know they are going to be casual, losing the jacket or just going open jacket with no tie can sometimes work to your benefit and make you more personable IMO.
-
They do, but everyone has at least a few good references they can offer, which makes it somewhat moot. I would never hire a developer without good references, but you have to put very little weight on them. Anyone they offer as a reference will give a gleaming review.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
Anyone they offer as a reference will give a gleaming review.
Then offer some that will give an honest review, even if it's not so glowing.
Fight Big Government:
http://obamacareclassaction.com/
http://obamacaretruth.org/ -
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
Mike Marynowski wrote:
and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different.
So, in my evil 12:20 AM alter ego, I'd toss it back in their lap. What would THEY do differently, in terms of working with the developer, to ensure that they are getting the goods? It's fine to point fingers, but bad developers get away with being bad because there is a fundamental lack of committment on the part of the customer to be responsible for their part of the partnership. At a minimum, that means that, if they don't read code themselves, they should hire a third party to evaluate the work. At best, it means being involved in the specs, the design, the testing, the documentation, etc. Yes, the fault is definitely with bad developers, but not 100%. So it would be really interesting to hear what the response would be to a "well, what would you WANT done differently? What would YOU do differently?" And it doesn't have to be done confrontationally, but with genuine empathy to their dilemma and genuine interest in working meeting their needs. Marc
-
Mike Marynowski wrote:
and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different.
So, in my evil 12:20 AM alter ego, I'd toss it back in their lap. What would THEY do differently, in terms of working with the developer, to ensure that they are getting the goods? It's fine to point fingers, but bad developers get away with being bad because there is a fundamental lack of committment on the part of the customer to be responsible for their part of the partnership. At a minimum, that means that, if they don't read code themselves, they should hire a third party to evaluate the work. At best, it means being involved in the specs, the design, the testing, the documentation, etc. Yes, the fault is definitely with bad developers, but not 100%. So it would be really interesting to hear what the response would be to a "well, what would you WANT done differently? What would YOU do differently?" And it doesn't have to be done confrontationally, but with genuine empathy to their dilemma and genuine interest in working meeting their needs. Marc
Well said sir.
-
Hey guys, There was a question posted a few days ago about how to find reliable web dev companies. I have a similar question, but a bit of a different spin - how can I prove we are reliable [besides the obvious]? A majority of our current business comes from people who have had serial bad experiences with other web/software companies or developers. Although I generally manage to convince them we are different, I think it's more salesmanship than any solid arguments I can offer. All the previous guys had good references, they sounded like they knew what they are talking about [what "programmer" wouldn't to a non-geek], had a few good samples of their work. Yet my client got screwed by them (no support, uncommented horrible code, bugzilla app), and they want to know how I can assure them we will be different. I really don't have a good answer for this, except to point them at my other clients that had bad experiences before us and have seen the light, but they've usually heard that tune a few times before. We all look at what the other guy did and tell prospective clients we can do better, and chances are the next guy will do the same about our work just to win the business. Since they are non-developers, they don't/can't/won't actually understand why the previous work was bad, so they really have to take my word for it. And there the circle closes, because that's what they did with the previous guy. And then of course they see the project quote and ask why it is 3x more expensive than their last 2 guys who messed it up...seriously? I'm tired of having to justify our prices against the shoddy work of "freelancers" (my apologies, you can ignore that last sentence if you are one of the VERY rare good ones)... EDIT: ooo, look at that, there's a rant icon!
modified on Monday, May 17, 2010 7:45 PM
When I was doing custom software development, our solution to this was quite simple. Don't charge a penny until the project is complete.
-
When I was doing custom software development, our solution to this was quite simple. Don't charge a penny until the project is complete.
I'm not sure that is a particularly good approach either. You need to make sure the client is committed to the project as well, and if it's a 3-6 month project (or longer), zero down NET30 unfortunately isn't an option. We've had clients go out of business in the period between project start and project completion because they didn't run their number right, and then you are out many months work. That said, it's a good approach for small short term projects, I agree. But we don't really get those anymore these days.
-
I'm not sure that is a particularly good approach either. You need to make sure the client is committed to the project as well, and if it's a 3-6 month project (or longer), zero down NET30 unfortunately isn't an option. We've had clients go out of business in the period between project start and project completion because they didn't run their number right, and then you are out many months work. That said, it's a good approach for small short term projects, I agree. But we don't really get those anymore these days.
And part of the skill is choosing your clients, and minimising that risk. There's always a risk of some kind. If there was a risk-free way of making money, we'ed all be doing it. If your company can't afford "pay on completion" for a 3 month project, that tells the client a lot about how successful you are as a business, which is a reflection on the quality of your work. For those six-month projects, there would also be a few shorter projects bringing in money (still billed at the end of the individual project), to fund the business until the six-month project is complete. If you are too small to run the six-month project and a few shorter projects, then you are too small for the six-month project anyway. You would always need to spread the commerical risk. On a related note, but an unrelated business, I had all the doors and windows replaced at home recently. Total cost was a five-figure sum (in Sterling, not dollars), and the company made all the windows, and fitted them, and only then did I pay, once I was happy. No money up front - and that was one of the things that told me that the company concerned would do a proper job, because they've been in business 20 years, and no-one stays in business for 20 years with that kind of policy if people aren't happy with their work once it's complete.
-
And part of the skill is choosing your clients, and minimising that risk. There's always a risk of some kind. If there was a risk-free way of making money, we'ed all be doing it. If your company can't afford "pay on completion" for a 3 month project, that tells the client a lot about how successful you are as a business, which is a reflection on the quality of your work. For those six-month projects, there would also be a few shorter projects bringing in money (still billed at the end of the individual project), to fund the business until the six-month project is complete. If you are too small to run the six-month project and a few shorter projects, then you are too small for the six-month project anyway. You would always need to spread the commerical risk. On a related note, but an unrelated business, I had all the doors and windows replaced at home recently. Total cost was a five-figure sum (in Sterling, not dollars), and the company made all the windows, and fitted them, and only then did I pay, once I was happy. No money up front - and that was one of the things that told me that the company concerned would do a proper job, because they've been in business 20 years, and no-one stays in business for 20 years with that kind of policy if people aren't happy with their work once it's complete.
Unless you intimately know a client's business, you are not in a very good position to make those risk assessments. The guy working on your house doesn't really care because he can register a lien against your house. When a business goes out of business, you are screwed. You *might* get a small amount back after the business gets liquidated by the bank, but you are usually far back in the line of creditors at that point. I didn't say the company can't afford it, we just won't do it for a first-time "regular" client anyway. We do a lot of startup companies or startup ideas with big visions who need a product to get going, and that is often a $50,000+ project. Only a lunatic would take on one of those zero down, just my opinion. That doesn't mean you turn down business, it means you take appropriate measures to reduce your risk to a level you feel comfortable, such as milestone payments. We do long projects for government agencies or public organizations all the time, and those are always NET30. But those aren't the clients I am discussing in this thread.
-
Unless you intimately know a client's business, you are not in a very good position to make those risk assessments. The guy working on your house doesn't really care because he can register a lien against your house. When a business goes out of business, you are screwed. You *might* get a small amount back after the business gets liquidated by the bank, but you are usually far back in the line of creditors at that point. I didn't say the company can't afford it, we just won't do it for a first-time "regular" client anyway. We do a lot of startup companies or startup ideas with big visions who need a product to get going, and that is often a $50,000+ project. Only a lunatic would take on one of those zero down, just my opinion. That doesn't mean you turn down business, it means you take appropriate measures to reduce your risk to a level you feel comfortable, such as milestone payments. We do long projects for government agencies or public organizations all the time, and those are always NET30. But those aren't the clients I am discussing in this thread.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
The guy working on your house doesn't really care because he can register a lien against your house.
Actually, due to some vagaries of English propery law, the windows become mine once they are installed in my property, even though I haven't paid for them yet. It's a fact that has caused genuine businesses some major problems in the past since some unscrupulous home owners exploit this and refuse to pay.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
that is often a $50,000+ project. Only a lunatic would take on one of those zero down, just my opinion.
It depends on the size of your business as how how much money that is. To a one-man shop, it's a year's revenue. BP are currently throwing that much into the ocean every hour. The level of risk is related to the (size of project / size of business) ratio. From the client's perspective, what do they get if you go out of business after a few milestone payments? Unlike a half-cost (for example) milestone payment, that you can spend immediately, the client probaly won't be able to use half-completed software, so they are exposed to a risk too. You asked how to engender trust in your clients. Offering to take the risk away from them is one way to do it.
-
Mike Marynowski wrote:
The guy working on your house doesn't really care because he can register a lien against your house.
Actually, due to some vagaries of English propery law, the windows become mine once they are installed in my property, even though I haven't paid for them yet. It's a fact that has caused genuine businesses some major problems in the past since some unscrupulous home owners exploit this and refuse to pay.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
that is often a $50,000+ project. Only a lunatic would take on one of those zero down, just my opinion.
It depends on the size of your business as how how much money that is. To a one-man shop, it's a year's revenue. BP are currently throwing that much into the ocean every hour. The level of risk is related to the (size of project / size of business) ratio. From the client's perspective, what do they get if you go out of business after a few milestone payments? Unlike a half-cost (for example) milestone payment, that you can spend immediately, the client probaly won't be able to use half-completed software, so they are exposed to a risk too. You asked how to engender trust in your clients. Offering to take the risk away from them is one way to do it.
Electron Shepherd wrote:
Actually, due to some vagaries of English propery law, the windows become mine once they are installed in my property, even though I haven't paid for them yet.
Well, sucks to be a contractor in England I guess?
Electron Shepherd wrote:
The level of risk is related to the (size of project / size of business) ratio.
Absolutely, but even a big shop would be crazy to do it, even if they can afford the loss. The point is that the risk, in the class of clients I'm trying to win over here, is just too great to justify a 100% NET30 project.
Electron Shepherd wrote:
From the client's perspective, what do they get if you go out of business after a few milestone payments?
They get the deliverables that were completed up to that milestone. That's the whole point of milestone payments. You turn over everything (including source) up to that milestone, and the client pays for it. If you go out of business, they can get another company to pick up where you left off.
Electron Shepherd wrote:
Unlike a half-cost (for example) milestone payment, that you can spend immediately, the client probaly won't be able to use half-completed software, so they are exposed to a risk too.
Of course they are exposed to a risk. There is a difference between sharing the risk and taking on all the risk. Taking on all the risk is just foolish in this line of business. Setting up a shared risk agreement is for the benefit of everybody. You don't have to have all your costs covered by the milestone payments. You can do 50% of the project with milestone payments, remaining 50% upon completion and approval. You are motivated to complete the project successfully to get that last 50%. Because they agreed to milestone payments (and they are making them), you have better assurance that they can actually afford the project and aren't over their head, and the fact that they have made a monetary committment means they won't just walk away 2 months in when they lose interest. Spending milestone payments immediately? No, there are staff salaries to pay, and those milestone payments usually aren't even enough to cover the clients' "debt" up to that point. Unfortunately my underlings don't work for free :) Even if you offer no money until completion, the client ultimately pays for t
-
When I was doing custom software development, our solution to this was quite simple. Don't charge a penny until the project is complete.
Electron Shepherd wrote:
Don't charge a penny until the project is complete.
I tried that... a year ago. I was asked to write some software to integrate with a third-party product, but the third-party product still isn't behaving properly, so I can't even test my software yet.