No System of Government Works (by itself)
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you need abit of them all. Capitalism to fuel the ecomeny, which in turn brings in taxes Socialism to exert control over the captialism Communism to try to balance the growing gap over the rich and poor
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
100% agreed :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things balance themselves out. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
It isn't a problem. Trying to fix it will create a cascade of problems which will negatively effect everyone. Think of all the people who can't get a job because the government won't let them work for less than minimum wage. Think of all the companies who have to throw money away hiring workers that are overpaid. Its bad for the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Sorry disagree with you there. Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life! my brain hurts too much to pad this out further to be honest!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
It isn't a problem. Trying to fix it will create a cascade of problems which will negatively effect everyone. Think of all the people who can't get a job because the government won't let them work for less than minimum wage. Think of all the companies who have to throw money away hiring workers that are overpaid. Its bad for the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't a problem.
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation. Tell them that it isn't a problem. Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Sorry disagree with you there. Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life! my brain hurts too much to pad this out further to be honest!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up.
but normal wage increases are done at the start of financial years! so you have the potential to wait upto 1 year for a wage increase
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
This is a claim frequently used to justify free markets yet there is no logical reason why it must occur. Once the free market system brings about a general depression there is no reason why it should recover. At least there wasn't one when I studied general equilibrium theory and welfare economics.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value.
Markets do not determine 'true values', they determine the prices of commodities. You could argue that the price of a commodity is its 'true value', but here you are just using circular reasoning. I.e the true value of a product is its price, markets determine prices, therefore markets determine true value. Now if one were to take a Labor Theory of Value approach one would see that price and 'true value' can, and frequently will, diverge.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't a problem.
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation. Tell them that it isn't a problem. Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Question, exactly how would the free market balance and normalize the oil spill we're dealing with right now? Or is government intervention viable when there are national issues caused by corporations?
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
This is a claim frequently used to justify free markets yet there is no logical reason why it must occur. Once the free market system brings about a general depression there is no reason why it should recover. At least there wasn't one when I studied general equilibrium theory and welfare economics.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value.
Markets do not determine 'true values', they determine the prices of commodities. You could argue that the price of a commodity is its 'true value', but here you are just using circular reasoning. I.e the true value of a product is its price, markets determine prices, therefore markets determine true value. Now if one were to take a Labor Theory of Value approach one would see that price and 'true value' can, and frequently will, diverge.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Question, exactly how would the free market balance and normalize the oil spill we're dealing with right now? Or is government intervention viable when there are national issues caused by corporations?
BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
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But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
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No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
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BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
No BP would face a trail by the US government. IF found guilty they would fine them severely. BP would offer some sort of clean up act on the oil spill to the land! Insurance companies would then face a huge amount of claims to property and belongings!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin.
This has nothing to do with inflation, and everything to do with standard of living. Stop trying to change the subject, and tackle the issue at hand.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X.
If your options are "Work for a dollar an hour" or "Don't work", which one are you going to choose? If people are desperate enough to work for a dollar an hour, why would you, as the owner of a company, bother to pay them more? Look at illegal immigrants... They're paid crap wages, because companies can get away with it. Remove the labor laws, and that becomes universal.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Yeah, it's called "Everyone gets off the grid and becomes a farmer"... Say goodbye to hundreds of years of progress.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
No, that's what happens when a company can pay workers the absolute minimum. If you can get someone to sew T-shirts for a dollar an hour, why would you pay them two? Hell, why pay a dollar when there are starving people who will do it for 75 cents? If they don't like it, they can quit, and you'll find someone else just as easily. Remember, the less you pay your workers, the bigger your profit margins are. That's what capitalism is all about, right? Profits.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
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