No System of Government Works (by itself)
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No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
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The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
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BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
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No BP would face a trail by the US government. IF found guilty they would fine them severely. BP would offer some sort of clean up act on the oil spill to the land! Insurance companies would then face a huge amount of claims to property and belongings!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin.
This has nothing to do with inflation, and everything to do with standard of living. Stop trying to change the subject, and tackle the issue at hand.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X.
If your options are "Work for a dollar an hour" or "Don't work", which one are you going to choose? If people are desperate enough to work for a dollar an hour, why would you, as the owner of a company, bother to pay them more? Look at illegal immigrants... They're paid crap wages, because companies can get away with it. Remove the labor laws, and that becomes universal.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Yeah, it's called "Everyone gets off the grid and becomes a farmer"... Say goodbye to hundreds of years of progress.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
No, that's what happens when a company can pay workers the absolute minimum. If you can get someone to sew T-shirts for a dollar an hour, why would you pay them two? Hell, why pay a dollar when there are starving people who will do it for 75 cents? If they don't like it, they can quit, and you'll find someone else just as easily. Remember, the less you pay your workers, the bigger your profit margins are. That's what capitalism is all about, right? Profits.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No BP would face a trail by the US government. IF found guilty they would fine them severely. BP would offer some sort of clean up act on the oil spill to the land! Insurance companies would then face a huge amount of claims to property and belongings!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
Perhaps in the corrupt system of government we have now. However, theoretically, if you damage someones property, it is your responsibility to pay for damages. BP is in bed with the government, Obama gave them an award not too long before the "accident". He will let them get away with a slap on the wrist while at the same time telling us how tough he is.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars
And as a note, that'd come out to 5 dollars an hour using his own figures. 40 hour work week, 200 dollars a week.
I'd die to make that much money right now.
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
... economics, and how things truly work.
The two things are quite different. Economics is essentially a branch of mathematical modeling that starts from a bunch of assumptions about how the world works. One of the fundamental assumptions is that free markets are the best way to organize production and consumption. This is then used to justify free markets as the optimal way to organize production and consumption, because the models say it is so. Friedman, and others, use this to promote their political views. Incidentally I lost respect for him when he produced a theory that relied on the assumption that if you won first prize in the national lottery you would not increase your spending.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
people's inherent God given rights.
Where do I find out what these are? How can I be sure God gave them?
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Capitalism isn't a form of government so it doesn't fit with the list of forms of government. I think you should be listing Democracy there instead of capitalism.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Capitalism isn't a form of government so it doesn't fit with the list of forms of government. I think you should be listing Democracy there instead of capitalism.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
Well, I could have called it a socioeconomic system, but I hate buzzwords. Besides, everyone here understood it just fine :P
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I'd die to make that much money right now.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
people's inherent God given rights.
Where do I find out what these are? How can I be sure God gave them?
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
Since God doesn't exist you can't, but he won't admit that.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Well, I could have called it a socioeconomic system, but I hate buzzwords. Besides, everyone here understood it just fine :P
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
I don't support most of Hamilton's ideas.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Again I say... Upon seizing power I promise to be a benevolent dictator. Thrakazogism Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded,laziness is punished by 24 hour reality show involving tazers. Reality: Revenue from the show tazing the lazy will be used to feed/educate them. End Result: Entertainment, World peace.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Who did you parrot that from? I mean, it's mostly right (which is how I know it can't be from you) and yet, even having written it you can't see how it completely defeated your argument. The Constitution isn't something that lays out all the laws, it is a document which lays out the architecture of the government and places restrictions on it. Your right to have your property protected from non-government entities stems not from the Constitution itself, but from the various laws and regulations enacted by its government. The ONLY way it could be construed as a required government responsibility is via the 14th Amendment using the exact same logic that was used to restrict private business' ability to discriminate (and we all know what your keepers think of that). The property rights you are given come not from God, not from the Constitution, but, as you said, from authority.
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.