Double Standards
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Bob Emmett wrote:
Sorry.
That won't help you. You're both on the French and England to do list :-\ The only hope you have is that the war between them(as who gets you first) will last long enough :)
Just an irritated, ranting son of ... an IT guy. At your trolling services
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Your BP stock hurting a bit is it?
Dalek Dave wrote:
not proven to be the fault of BP
And whose fault would it be? Were BP not responsible for properly supervising their subcontractors and ensuring overall safety of the operation? Does outsourcing buy freedom from responsibility?
accountability and responsibility are not the same thing. BP have full accountability. The drilling company are still responsible under there own health and safety charter and safety management system to ensure the operations are undertaken by suitably qualified and competent personnel. The drilling company are accountable for any 3rd party tools and equipment and personnel they utilise, and are being used in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines. The suppliers/manufacturers of these are responsible for ensuring they meet the necessary industry standards, before being released. So, as you can see accountability and responsibility varies at each level. BUT, as BP are at the top of contract chain, they are fully accountable.
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Waving? dave.m.auld[at]googlewave.com -
accountability and responsibility are not the same thing. BP have full accountability. The drilling company are still responsible under there own health and safety charter and safety management system to ensure the operations are undertaken by suitably qualified and competent personnel. The drilling company are accountable for any 3rd party tools and equipment and personnel they utilise, and are being used in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines. The suppliers/manufacturers of these are responsible for ensuring they meet the necessary industry standards, before being released. So, as you can see accountability and responsibility varies at each level. BUT, as BP are at the top of contract chain, they are fully accountable.
Dave Don't forget to rate messages!
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Waving? dave.m.auld[at]googlewave.comSo, do you think DD was using "fault" in the sense of accountability or responsibility? Does it matter whose "fault" it is (I think it might, in the event there is criminal liability found).
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Exception is taken by the people, the nation and the government who are affected by a disaster; what companies or nations are responsible or involved is not of prime importance. The Indian people did not appreciate what happened in Bhopal, the Yanks don't like the oil spill situation in their gulf (nor do the Mexicans). It is bad for the local people, the environment, the economy, the public image; it also illustrates the insignificance of man against nature. I don't see nationalism here; I do see proof that more regulations and enforcements are required. Mankind has developed many ways of destroying its habitat and itself; and, consciously or unconsciously is testing each and every one of them. Leaving matters in the hands of single companies and countries while consequences can be pretty global is foolish. One can not exclude each and every disaster; preventing the ones that can be prevented, and providing ample precautions proportional to the risks taken, is required. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [Why QA sucks] [My Articles]
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Luc Pattyn wrote:
I don't see nationalism here; I do see proof that more regulations and enforcements are required.
For the most part I agree with you. What may appear as "nationalism" is Obama's faux rage at BP, which is designed in part to deflect anger from his administration which was woefully late to respond, and whose regulatory agency was corrupt and remiss in the enforcement of regulations ( the head of the agency at the time was a 2009 Obama appointee, who resigned shortly after the accident).
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Luc Pattyn wrote:
I don't see nationalism here; I do see proof that more regulations and enforcements are required.
For the most part I agree with you. What may appear as "nationalism" is Obama's faux rage at BP, which is designed in part to deflect anger from his administration which was woefully late to respond, and whose regulatory agency was corrupt and remiss in the enforcement of regulations ( the head of the agency at the time was a 2009 Obama appointee, who resigned shortly after the accident).
I don't care much what the politicians say, whatever party they belong to; it is what they do that counts. When they think they can solve the problem it is all about them, and when they can't they are quick at pointing a finger to someone, preferably far away. Let us wait and see how the debate resurfaces on green energy and on Alaska oil drilling. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [Why QA sucks] [My Articles]
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So, do you think DD was using "fault" in the sense of accountability or responsibility? Does it matter whose "fault" it is (I think it might, in the event there is criminal liability found).
I for some reason associate fault with responsibility.........but thats maybe just me. I am not going to blame anyone for being responsible or accountable or have criminal liability...........i will leave that to the legal eagles to fight out over the next few years. I dare say there will be countless cases both civil and criminal, between Gov, BP, TransOcean, Suppliers and between each other. Certainly jobs for the legal boys (and girls) for a good few years to come!
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Union Carbide's plant in Bhopal released poisonous gas that killed 15,000 people, affected 500,000 and 25 years later is still pouring toxins into the water supply. Were the American up in arms about it? Did they demand action? Did the President rush out there? No. Because it was an American company. A few fish and birds get slicked by an oil leak not proven to be the fault of BP and there is mayhem. Still, I am sure they will be punished to the same extent as Exxon were for their slick in Alaska, ie 0.1% of annual turnover.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
I'm not old enough to remember Bhopal but I've seen several programs on it afterwards so I doubt people in the USA just ignored it like you're claiming. If you are complaining that Americans pay more attention to disasters in their back yard than other people's that may be true but please point out any place on earth where that isn't the case.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Were the American up in arms about it? Did they demand action? Did the President rush out there? No.
Were the Britains up in arms about it? Do they demand action? Did the Prime Minister rush out there? No. I find it strange that you blame the US government for Bhopal because it was a US company but nobody for the oil spill. Nobody is blaiming Britain for this spill nor should they. It happened on the US territory and it is the responsibility of the US government not Britain to regulate what happens on our territory even though BP is a British company. Similarly the Indian government is the one that should be deciding safety regulations in India and when disasters happen should be deciding what punishments and cleanup should be required unless you think the US should decide all the regulations for the entire world.
Dalek Dave wrote:
A few fish and birds get slicked by an oil leak not proven to be the fault of BP and there is mayhem.
It's a tiny bit more serios than that. 11 people died on the rig and pretty much every fisherman and business along the entire Gulf coast will be lucky to avoid bankruptcy. According to at least one of the workers I've seen interviewed both BP and TransOcean were at fault. But in any case BP has been running their company the way Mr. Burns runs his nuclear power plant. This is the 3rd disaster I can remember them causing and they have almost 100 times more serious safety violations than the next worst company http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-safety-record/story?id=10763042[^]. And when this disaster happened they first claimed no oil was leaking then lowballed the estimates of how much was leaking probably because their liability will depend partially on how much oil leaks.
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Union Carbide is responsible, but the government where the plant resides has to step in. Will they? No, because the plant employees a crapload of local people and the government would rather have their people employed than worry about toxic waste. There's also probably a hefty financial incentive (in the form of under-the-table kickbacks from UC) for the government there to turn a blind eye. Unfortunately, retribution exacted by any government on any corporate entity is never quite enough for the public's satisfaction, and there's really no recourse for the public, even in a "democratic" country such as the USA. The corporations own the politicians, and the "we really care" facade held up by the government - any government - is nothing more than smoke and mirrors because the public has a problem with long-term memory that's reinforced with the knowledge that they can't do anything about it. In other words - the situation is the same as it ever was. The people with the money run the world, and nothing short of widespread anarchy is going to change the status quo.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001modified on Sunday, June 6, 2010 9:04 AM
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
and the "we really care" facade held up by the government - any government -
Not here. The government clearly says to people "Frankly, we don't care".
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Union Carbide's plant in Bhopal released poisonous gas that killed 15,000 people, affected 500,000 and 25 years later is still pouring toxins into the water supply. Were the American up in arms about it? Did they demand action? Did the President rush out there? No. Because it was an American company. A few fish and birds get slicked by an oil leak not proven to be the fault of BP and there is mayhem. Still, I am sure they will be punished to the same extent as Exxon were for their slick in Alaska, ie 0.1% of annual turnover.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
FYI: This [^] cartoon got published in this weekend's edition of "De Standaard", one of the leading newspapers in Flanders. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [Why QA sucks] [My Articles]
I only read formatted code with indentation, so please use PRE tags for code snippets.
I'm not participating in frackin' Q&A, so if you want my opinion, ask away in a real forum (or on my profile page).
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Union Carbide's plant in Bhopal released poisonous gas that killed 15,000 people, affected 500,000 and 25 years later is still pouring toxins into the water supply. Were the American up in arms about it? Did they demand action? Did the President rush out there? No. Because it was an American company. A few fish and birds get slicked by an oil leak not proven to be the fault of BP and there is mayhem. Still, I am sure they will be punished to the same extent as Exxon were for their slick in Alaska, ie 0.1% of annual turnover.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "double standard", either that or you don't understand the meaning of "irony" because your post is a brilliant example of it. You're complaining that the president of the US didn't run out to Bhopal and the US citizens weren't up in arms, when the British Prime Minister hasn't run out and few british citizens seem to be up in arms. Why aren't you complaining about them? The fact is, it's a US territory, and the US is responsible for regulating companies doing business in their territory. While the US could be concerned about US companies operating abroad, there is nothing they can legally do unless those companies are violating international law. It's the responsibility of the government in which country the company operates to police the company, not the US. In fact, I would imagine that India would have been quite cross with the US if they came over and forced Union Carbide to shut their doors and fire all their employees. So, perhaps you should think about your argument before you make it.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Bob Emmett wrote:
#1 - Removing the French.
From the national cricket championship? Indeed, this sport is not very popular in France. ;P
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Union Carbide is responsible, but the government where the plant resides has to step in. Will they? No, because the plant employees a crapload of local people and the government would rather have their people employed than worry about toxic waste. There's also probably a hefty financial incentive (in the form of under-the-table kickbacks from UC) for the government there to turn a blind eye. Unfortunately, retribution exacted by any government on any corporate entity is never quite enough for the public's satisfaction, and there's really no recourse for the public, even in a "democratic" country such as the USA. The corporations own the politicians, and the "we really care" facade held up by the government - any government - is nothing more than smoke and mirrors because the public has a problem with long-term memory that's reinforced with the knowledge that they can't do anything about it. In other words - the situation is the same as it ever was. The people with the money run the world, and nothing short of widespread anarchy is going to change the status quo.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001modified on Sunday, June 6, 2010 9:04 AM
