Why Facts Don't Win Arguments
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Have you ever tried to change the mind of a moron? Well, captain-pizza-pants, did he change yours? Your point is proven. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Have you ever tried to change the mind of a moron? Well, captain-pizza-pants, did he change yours? Your point is proven. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Changing his mind would require an electron microscope. After all, you need to find it first. :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)It goes beyond arguments even, there's just this "Can't do" attitude some folks take with things, and not a damn thing will change their mind. Even them managing to do what they said they couldn't. While I'm no teachers aide or anything, I did help some people with math when they asked. At pretty much every level there was someone saying they just couldn't get the math. Then I'd take them through step by step, they'd do it just fine, and look me square in the face and say they couldn't do it. All I'd do was prompt them, "and in this step you what?" or something along those lines after working through a number of sample problems with/for them. They could do it just fine. I leave them alone with a sheet of paper they'd get two steps in and stop. For some folks change just isn't an option, and they won't let reality get into the way of it.
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I suspect that no one regards their opponent as a reliable source of "facts". In real life you have no way to quickly check a "fact" unless it's something you can see for yourself, and on teh intertubes, well, it's not that hard to set up several webpages of "evidence" supporting some fake "fact". In other words, facts aren't perceived as such, but as "wild claims", and most of the time that's a safe assumption to make. That's just something crazy that I made up, but who knows, it might be true :)
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So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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I suspect that no one regards their opponent as a reliable source of "facts". In real life you have no way to quickly check a "fact" unless it's something you can see for yourself, and on teh intertubes, well, it's not that hard to set up several webpages of "evidence" supporting some fake "fact". In other words, facts aren't perceived as such, but as "wild claims", and most of the time that's a safe assumption to make. That's just something crazy that I made up, but who knows, it might be true :)
This is why critical thinking is so important. I'm currently watching my father loose his critical thinking by not questioning the basis of what he hears in the media. Seeking the truth is a fascinating venture that doesn't stop. I routinely find things like the black panther incident on Fox News being reported as crap when the event took place under a different president with a different head of DOJ who decides not to prosecute. But that doesn't make the news story. Instead what you hear is a lot of partial cropped parts much like a montage from The Daily Show only it doesn't include jokes, just venom. I've found some of that on quote unquote "liberal" stations and programs, but not to the degree of fact blood letting I find on Fox or conservative news personalities. I'm open to being wrong, but man I just can't find it going the other way. When someone quotes something from a particular source and lists it I check them and see if it's out of context. When I see poll numbers citing 120% from the same poll, I have to conclude they can't do math or are just plain lieing. With the amount of crap CSS puts out why bother responding to it. It's completely wrong and not worth taking even a look at at this point. If you do it's only for entertainment purposes. Am I wrong?
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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This is why critical thinking is so important. I'm currently watching my father loose his critical thinking by not questioning the basis of what he hears in the media. Seeking the truth is a fascinating venture that doesn't stop. I routinely find things like the black panther incident on Fox News being reported as crap when the event took place under a different president with a different head of DOJ who decides not to prosecute. But that doesn't make the news story. Instead what you hear is a lot of partial cropped parts much like a montage from The Daily Show only it doesn't include jokes, just venom. I've found some of that on quote unquote "liberal" stations and programs, but not to the degree of fact blood letting I find on Fox or conservative news personalities. I'm open to being wrong, but man I just can't find it going the other way. When someone quotes something from a particular source and lists it I check them and see if it's out of context. When I see poll numbers citing 120% from the same poll, I have to conclude they can't do math or are just plain lieing. With the amount of crap CSS puts out why bother responding to it. It's completely wrong and not worth taking even a look at at this point. If you do it's only for entertainment purposes. Am I wrong?
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you.
You were a successful Information Technology Practitioner? And then you wrecked your brain with drugs, and could only obtain employment as a burger flipper.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
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So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Once again you have missed his point!! what he is saying that in real life it is possible to change peoples views from facts from either other people's point of view or actual evidence. e.g That it might be possible for you to change his view on the government and vice versa through reasonable intelligent conversation and not just a link to a youtube video and retorical abuse because points aren't being listen or heard in the manner the speaker wishes
As barmey as a sack of badgers
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So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I have changed my beliefs in life
...but not to the better.
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)It's not just a disagreement about the facts that won't convince people. I found early on that people might accept the facts and the logic of an argument but still just dismiss it. As an example, in my youth I had to attend a planning meeting at an engineering company. Part of the meeting was to plan production of a widget that customers would need to install in the next six months. Estimates for the number required went from 50,000 upwards. I just asked How many customers? (ans 200), how many sites/customer? (ans 4), how many widgets/site? (ans 10). So suggested we are looking at about 8,000. This was dismissed out of hand by all the others present as being far too low. Even though they were the ones they answered the questions. They agreed the numbers were good estimates, but thought that 200x4x10 amounted to much more than 8,000. Needless to say there was substantial over production of widgets in the next six months.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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Once again you have missed his point!! what he is saying that in real life it is possible to change peoples views from facts from either other people's point of view or actual evidence. e.g That it might be possible for you to change his view on the government and vice versa through reasonable intelligent conversation and not just a link to a youtube video and retorical abuse because points aren't being listen or heard in the manner the speaker wishes
As barmey as a sack of badgers
Actually, the general point is how people pick a viewpoint and stick to it, even when proven wrong. When you present evidence that contradicts their viewpoint, they try to rationalize it or just disregard the evidence, in order to maintain their position. Kind of like the "birther" thing... First they claim he's foreign-born... He presents a birth certificate, and they just assume that they're still right, so claim that it's a fake. Hospital records are found that prove its validity, and they just assume the records have been faked as well. Anyone who relates first-hand experience would be assumed to be "in on the conspiracy"... Anything to avoid admitting a mistake.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
It's not just a disagreement about the facts that won't convince people. I found early on that people might accept the facts and the logic of an argument but still just dismiss it. As an example, in my youth I had to attend a planning meeting at an engineering company. Part of the meeting was to plan production of a widget that customers would need to install in the next six months. Estimates for the number required went from 50,000 upwards. I just asked How many customers? (ans 200), how many sites/customer? (ans 4), how many widgets/site? (ans 10). So suggested we are looking at about 8,000. This was dismissed out of hand by all the others present as being far too low. Even though they were the ones they answered the questions. They agreed the numbers were good estimates, but thought that 200x4x10 amounted to much more than 8,000. Needless to say there was substantial over production of widgets in the next six months.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
"First rule of government spending. Why build one when you can build two at twice the price?"
-- Contact (1997)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
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News overload I would say. He is getting older too, but I'm not sure that's at the core of it. We have divergent political points of view too, I suppose. edit I should add that he keeps telling me things are going to get worse, but my contract just got renewed and I got a raise. I find that everywhere I look at retail stores It's busier than a 2 dollar whore on the Vegas strip and yet since Fox News tells him it's getting worse or is going to it must be. People like Glenn Beck sell this story and people lap it up. It reminds me of the year 2000 cults and how their leaders kept pushing back the date and coming up with excuses as to why the aliens or the end of the world hadn't arrived yet. This same thinking can be said of the birthers and the truthers out there. This is turning into a rant of mine. Sorry about that. I just wish we, as a society, could spend our time fixing actual problems in the world instead of debunking pseudo facts by people. end edit
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I'm kinda sad I missed the fireworks. New career started as of this last week and I am trying to get some tasks done. This one reinforces what a lot of us know. Almost sad when you think about it.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
