I went to an MSDN seminar today
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... and we had a guy from MS presenting the security in .NET. We saw his presentation and I was somewhat shocked. It is an exact replica of the Java security model. I have touched .NET a little, particularly with C#. I was amused to see that many classes borrowed their names and methods to their Java counterpart. I said "baaah...". :rolleyes: But when I saw the demonstration with the ClassLoader, Byte code verifier (named differently in .NET, but same purpose), security model, it is definitely the exact same thing as Java. X| Remember, there is even that "platform independency" they claim .NET has. Remember when MS was bashing Java because it was too slow? MS is doing the exact same thing. Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. Don't get me wrong, I am a Microsoft developer, and I love .NET and C#. But I also developed did Java during almost 2 years, and I experimented a lot with it (security, and policies, among others). Reflection, Collections, etc., event the StringBuiler class (they call it StringBuffer in Java, but the same functionality). I really don't mind MS borrowing ideas from other platforms (that is how we progress by enhancing existing ideas), but at least give the credits to the inventors. The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it, and probably most of the audience was believing it too, since there is a big deal of chance they don't know Java. And I am not alone. I was with another Java guy, and we met 2 others ex-Java programmers. We were somewhat shocked. On another side, there was a girl presenting VS.NET, and arguing that both VB.NET and C# produced the exact assembly, and that there was absolutely no differenct (almost her words). But one of the assemblies contained a supplemental instruction: nop (no operation). She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. :wtf: Excuse me, but if there is a difference, there IS a difference, event that small. Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. What other CPians think of this? :confused: Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, becaus
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... and we had a guy from MS presenting the security in .NET. We saw his presentation and I was somewhat shocked. It is an exact replica of the Java security model. I have touched .NET a little, particularly with C#. I was amused to see that many classes borrowed their names and methods to their Java counterpart. I said "baaah...". :rolleyes: But when I saw the demonstration with the ClassLoader, Byte code verifier (named differently in .NET, but same purpose), security model, it is definitely the exact same thing as Java. X| Remember, there is even that "platform independency" they claim .NET has. Remember when MS was bashing Java because it was too slow? MS is doing the exact same thing. Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. Don't get me wrong, I am a Microsoft developer, and I love .NET and C#. But I also developed did Java during almost 2 years, and I experimented a lot with it (security, and policies, among others). Reflection, Collections, etc., event the StringBuiler class (they call it StringBuffer in Java, but the same functionality). I really don't mind MS borrowing ideas from other platforms (that is how we progress by enhancing existing ideas), but at least give the credits to the inventors. The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it, and probably most of the audience was believing it too, since there is a big deal of chance they don't know Java. And I am not alone. I was with another Java guy, and we met 2 others ex-Java programmers. We were somewhat shocked. On another side, there was a girl presenting VS.NET, and arguing that both VB.NET and C# produced the exact assembly, and that there was absolutely no differenct (almost her words). But one of the assemblies contained a supplemental instruction: nop (no operation). She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. :wtf: Excuse me, but if there is a difference, there IS a difference, event that small. Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. What other CPians think of this? :confused: Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, becaus
Michel Prévost wrote: MS is doing the exact same thing. In theory, I believe their IL approach is better and more easily optimised. Michel Prévost wrote: Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). I doubt that just-in-time compilation was invented by Sun, or Microsoft. Michel Prévost wrote: Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. And VB and C++ are both instructions for a compiler - are they the same. I don't believe Java compiled into native code so that each instruction was only compiled once. Am I wrong ? Michel Prévost wrote: The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it They were probably too stupid to think otherwise. Pascal had a VM, if I remember correctly. Sun did not invent it either. It's funny how you're presuming the first person you saw impliment this invented it, which is just what the crowd, and probably the persons presenting it, did as well. Michel Prévost wrote: She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. VB produces the NOPs, but they only have effect the first time each piece of code is run ( not that I am a VB fan ). Michel Prévost wrote: Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. She's right. Michel Prévost wrote: In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. So you should have used C#, shouldn't you ? :0) Michel Prévost wrote: What other CPians think of this? Microsoft are at least partially improving on the Java model, and that at least partly to annoy Scott McNealy. But neither of them invented any of this, so who cares ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer
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... and we had a guy from MS presenting the security in .NET. We saw his presentation and I was somewhat shocked. It is an exact replica of the Java security model. I have touched .NET a little, particularly with C#. I was amused to see that many classes borrowed their names and methods to their Java counterpart. I said "baaah...". :rolleyes: But when I saw the demonstration with the ClassLoader, Byte code verifier (named differently in .NET, but same purpose), security model, it is definitely the exact same thing as Java. X| Remember, there is even that "platform independency" they claim .NET has. Remember when MS was bashing Java because it was too slow? MS is doing the exact same thing. Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. Don't get me wrong, I am a Microsoft developer, and I love .NET and C#. But I also developed did Java during almost 2 years, and I experimented a lot with it (security, and policies, among others). Reflection, Collections, etc., event the StringBuiler class (they call it StringBuffer in Java, but the same functionality). I really don't mind MS borrowing ideas from other platforms (that is how we progress by enhancing existing ideas), but at least give the credits to the inventors. The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it, and probably most of the audience was believing it too, since there is a big deal of chance they don't know Java. And I am not alone. I was with another Java guy, and we met 2 others ex-Java programmers. We were somewhat shocked. On another side, there was a girl presenting VS.NET, and arguing that both VB.NET and C# produced the exact assembly, and that there was absolutely no differenct (almost her words). But one of the assemblies contained a supplemental instruction: nop (no operation). She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. :wtf: Excuse me, but if there is a difference, there IS a difference, event that small. Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. What other CPians think of this? :confused: Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, becaus
Five minutes!!!? that's ages compared to making a full-blown(!) windows program in visual studio 5 in 10 seconds!!
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Michel Prévost wrote: MS is doing the exact same thing. In theory, I believe their IL approach is better and more easily optimised. Michel Prévost wrote: Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). I doubt that just-in-time compilation was invented by Sun, or Microsoft. Michel Prévost wrote: Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. And VB and C++ are both instructions for a compiler - are they the same. I don't believe Java compiled into native code so that each instruction was only compiled once. Am I wrong ? Michel Prévost wrote: The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it They were probably too stupid to think otherwise. Pascal had a VM, if I remember correctly. Sun did not invent it either. It's funny how you're presuming the first person you saw impliment this invented it, which is just what the crowd, and probably the persons presenting it, did as well. Michel Prévost wrote: She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. VB produces the NOPs, but they only have effect the first time each piece of code is run ( not that I am a VB fan ). Michel Prévost wrote: Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. She's right. Michel Prévost wrote: In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. So you should have used C#, shouldn't you ? :0) Michel Prévost wrote: What other CPians think of this? Microsoft are at least partially improving on the Java model, and that at least partly to annoy Scott McNealy. But neither of them invented any of this, so who cares ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer
Christian Graus wrote: Michel Prévost wrote: Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. She's right. Are you telling me that you can make a web service that do anything more useful than returning the server's time in 5 minutes? ;P Maybe I can create in fact a web service in 5 minutes, but to modify it to handle complex types and perform any useful task like manipulating data in a database will take more time than that. Christian Graus wrote: So you should have used C#, shouldn't you ? :0) I would like to have used C#, but there is no .NET framework at the client's. As I mentioned, I like C#. :-O Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeard -
Five minutes!!!? that's ages compared to making a full-blown(!) windows program in visual studio 5 in 10 seconds!!
Yes a full-blown notepad Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeard -
... and we had a guy from MS presenting the security in .NET. We saw his presentation and I was somewhat shocked. It is an exact replica of the Java security model. I have touched .NET a little, particularly with C#. I was amused to see that many classes borrowed their names and methods to their Java counterpart. I said "baaah...". :rolleyes: But when I saw the demonstration with the ClassLoader, Byte code verifier (named differently in .NET, but same purpose), security model, it is definitely the exact same thing as Java. X| Remember, there is even that "platform independency" they claim .NET has. Remember when MS was bashing Java because it was too slow? MS is doing the exact same thing. Even the JIT (again, they didn't even bother changing the name from Java). Do you tell me that MS IL is better than the Java IL? In Java they call it Byte Code, in .NET they are assemblies, but they are the exact same thing: machine code for a virtual machine. Don't get me wrong, I am a Microsoft developer, and I love .NET and C#. But I also developed did Java during almost 2 years, and I experimented a lot with it (security, and policies, among others). Reflection, Collections, etc., event the StringBuiler class (they call it StringBuffer in Java, but the same functionality). I really don't mind MS borrowing ideas from other platforms (that is how we progress by enhancing existing ideas), but at least give the credits to the inventors. The guy doing the presentation was talking like MS invented it, and probably most of the audience was believing it too, since there is a big deal of chance they don't know Java. And I am not alone. I was with another Java guy, and we met 2 others ex-Java programmers. We were somewhat shocked. On another side, there was a girl presenting VS.NET, and arguing that both VB.NET and C# produced the exact assembly, and that there was absolutely no differenct (almost her words). But one of the assemblies contained a supplemental instruction: nop (no operation). She didn't let the audience know which one produced the extra CPU wasting cycle. :wtf: Excuse me, but if there is a difference, there IS a difference, event that small. Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. In the application we work on (C++ all the way), we have 4 web services. None of them were developed in less than several days. What other CPians think of this? :confused: Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, becaus
Yeah, a lot of stuff in .NET is copied straight from Java. I know, I'm a Java programmer. But, Microsoft has made some vast improvements also. .NET is compilied to native code before it's even run. With Java, that depends on the implementer of the VM. Only a few VM's compile completely to native code before running, JRockit is one. Also, there are only so many ways you can do something effectively and efficiently. That's why every language that has a String data type implements it internally as an array of chars. Can you think of a better way? Are you shocked that Java does this when the std::string in C++ does the same thing? .NET is Microsoft's version of the Java Platform. C# is Microsoft's version of the Java Language. In a lot of ways, .NET is better and has improved on Java. But there are some things they've left out too. Jason Gerard "This almost never matters, except quite often."
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Yeah, a lot of stuff in .NET is copied straight from Java. I know, I'm a Java programmer. But, Microsoft has made some vast improvements also. .NET is compilied to native code before it's even run. With Java, that depends on the implementer of the VM. Only a few VM's compile completely to native code before running, JRockit is one. Also, there are only so many ways you can do something effectively and efficiently. That's why every language that has a String data type implements it internally as an array of chars. Can you think of a better way? Are you shocked that Java does this when the std::string in C++ does the same thing? .NET is Microsoft's version of the Java Platform. C# is Microsoft's version of the Java Language. In a lot of ways, .NET is better and has improved on Java. But there are some things they've left out too. Jason Gerard "This almost never matters, except quite often."
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Christian Graus wrote: Michel Prévost wrote: Also, she argued that one could make a fully functional web service in 5 minutes. She's right. Are you telling me that you can make a web service that do anything more useful than returning the server's time in 5 minutes? ;P Maybe I can create in fact a web service in 5 minutes, but to modify it to handle complex types and perform any useful task like manipulating data in a database will take more time than that. Christian Graus wrote: So you should have used C#, shouldn't you ? :0) I would like to have used C#, but there is no .NET framework at the client's. As I mentioned, I like C#. :-O Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: Are you telling me that you can make a web service that do anything more useful than returning the server's time in 5 minutes? Did she say that ? Michel Prévost wrote: I would like to have used C#, but there is no .NET framework at the client's Well, if you can't distribute it, then that is obviously a problem, for now. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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Microsoft did reinvent the wheel. Only this time they made it round.
skulls don't kiss for an explanation - wait for the vacation photos! [sighist]
peterchen wrote: Microsoft did reinvent the wheel. Only this time they made it round. I like that. Jon Sagara When I want something, I just go out and buy it. That makes me a go-getter. -- My sister