The science of not believing in science [modified]
-
I thought it was fascinating given the endless debates that take place here. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1[^] <edit>This is not a post about climate science or any other pet posting project people have been known for. It is a post about psychology.</edit>
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, April 25, 2011 9:58 AM
-
I thought it was fascinating given the endless debates that take place here. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1[^] <edit>This is not a post about climate science or any other pet posting project people have been known for. It is a post about psychology.</edit>
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, April 25, 2011 9:58 AM
-
I thought it was fascinating given the endless debates that take place here. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1[^] <edit>This is not a post about climate science or any other pet posting project people have been known for. It is a post about psychology.</edit>
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, April 25, 2011 9:58 AM
Climate Change denial post in the SB? Tut tut, you know its now against the rules... :) A few point thoughh before Chris deletes it... 1) I am not that surprised by the contents, I have known for a long time that peoplel are capable of the most incredible self dellusion. The oposite is an almost impossible state where one constantly quesitons ones reasons and motives, almost to the point of being incapable of acting for without passion, and interest we acchieve little. Its is therefore naturtal that people seek to understand, and once they have a theory, like to try to proves its validity. 2) Throwing AGW scepticism in the same pile as people who believe they are aliens and incarnations of Jesus is a pathetic slandering that pretty much discredits the entire piece. 3) Only a complete moron would have believed Sadam had WMD (given that he was at his strongest after defeating Iran, and then got invaded by the US (Gulf war 1, the US very nearly got to Baghdad) and he dodnt use any WMD to defend Iraq. After that the country was the subject of sanctions and no fly zones. A situation hardly likely to increase his capability.) 4) The Climategate emails did not only find resonance with 'republicans', and dont forget that terms has no meaning outside the US, for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that politics has got fuck all to do with the validity of a scientific theory, it also drove people like Monbiot to question AGW. 5) Climategate was a staggering exposure of complicity, data manipulation and disregard for scientific transparency at the very heart of the AGW position. 6) The state of science regarding AGW is sufficiently imature that it is right to be sceptical. That IS the nature of science.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
modified on Saturday, April 23, 2011 5:09 AM
-
Yes, I agree, it is amazing how much of religion there is in both economic and environmental theory these days. I can remember back when science - even the soft sciences - were the natural home of skeptics and questioners.
"Repensum Est Canicula"
Oakman wrote:
it is amazing how much of religion there is in both economic and environmental theory these days.
Did you arrive at this conclusion by reading scientific journal articles?
Oakman wrote:
I can remember back when science - even the soft sciences - were the natural home of skeptics and questioners.
:laugh: I find it amusing that you consider yourself sufficiently involved in science to make such a comparison.
-
Climate Change denial post in the SB? Tut tut, you know its now against the rules... :) A few point thoughh before Chris deletes it... 1) I am not that surprised by the contents, I have known for a long time that peoplel are capable of the most incredible self dellusion. The oposite is an almost impossible state where one constantly quesitons ones reasons and motives, almost to the point of being incapable of acting for without passion, and interest we acchieve little. Its is therefore naturtal that people seek to understand, and once they have a theory, like to try to proves its validity. 2) Throwing AGW scepticism in the same pile as people who believe they are aliens and incarnations of Jesus is a pathetic slandering that pretty much discredits the entire piece. 3) Only a complete moron would have believed Sadam had WMD (given that he was at his strongest after defeating Iran, and then got invaded by the US (Gulf war 1, the US very nearly got to Baghdad) and he dodnt use any WMD to defend Iraq. After that the country was the subject of sanctions and no fly zones. A situation hardly likely to increase his capability.) 4) The Climategate emails did not only find resonance with 'republicans', and dont forget that terms has no meaning outside the US, for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that politics has got fuck all to do with the validity of a scientific theory, it also drove people like Monbiot to question AGW. 5) Climategate was a staggering exposure of complicity, data manipulation and disregard for scientific transparency at the very heart of the AGW position. 6) The state of science regarding AGW is sufficiently imature that it is right to be sceptical. That IS the nature of science.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
modified on Saturday, April 23, 2011 5:09 AM
fat_boy wrote:
Only a complete moron would have believed Sadam had WMD (given that he was at his strongest after defeating Iran, and then got invaded by the US (Gulf war 1, the US very nearly got to Baghdad) and he dodnt use any WMD to defend Iraq. After that the country was the subject of sanctions and no fly zones. A situation hardly likely to increase his capability.)
Well, of course not. In general, you don't nuke yourself if you can help it. Nukes are really only useful if you toss them over there, not right here. Also, it would have guaranteed changing the ROE to something a bit harsher. :laugh:
The enemy of my enemy of my enemy of my enemy is Kevin Bacon. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
-
I thought it was fascinating given the endless debates that take place here. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1[^] <edit>This is not a post about climate science or any other pet posting project people have been known for. It is a post about psychology.</edit>
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, April 25, 2011 9:58 AM
It's alll a bit 'he would say that, wouldn't he'. Too much on both sides is predicated on simply denying the other is correct whilst not offering any rock-solid proof, one way or the other. At best, it is conjecture and hypothesis; at worst it is dangerous twaddle designed to manipulate and subdue the masses. Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
It's alll a bit 'he would say that, wouldn't he'. Too much on both sides is predicated on simply denying the other is correct whilst not offering any rock-solid proof, one way or the other. At best, it is conjecture and hypothesis; at worst it is dangerous twaddle designed to manipulate and subdue the masses. Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
fat_boy wrote:
Only a complete moron would have believed Sadam had WMD (given that he was at his strongest after defeating Iran, and then got invaded by the US (Gulf war 1, the US very nearly got to Baghdad) and he dodnt use any WMD to defend Iraq. After that the country was the subject of sanctions and no fly zones. A situation hardly likely to increase his capability.)
Well, of course not. In general, you don't nuke yourself if you can help it. Nukes are really only useful if you toss them over there, not right here. Also, it would have guaranteed changing the ROE to something a bit harsher. :laugh:
The enemy of my enemy of my enemy of my enemy is Kevin Bacon. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
WMD isnt only nukes. He didnt use any of them. In any case, he would have nuked the south east of Iraq, its full of shias.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
-
It's alll a bit 'he would say that, wouldn't he'. Too much on both sides is predicated on simply denying the other is correct whilst not offering any rock-solid proof, one way or the other. At best, it is conjecture and hypothesis; at worst it is dangerous twaddle designed to manipulate and subdue the masses. Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
digital man wrote:
Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
I wouldnt use a colon there. The second phrase isnt an elaboration of the first, its just a seperate statement.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
-
digital man wrote:
Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
I wouldnt use a colon there. The second phrase isnt an elaboration of the first, its just a seperate statement.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
-
digital man wrote:
Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
I wouldnt use a colon there. The second phrase isnt an elaboration of the first, its just a seperate statement.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
-
I thought it was fascinating given the endless debates that take place here. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1[^] <edit>This is not a post about climate science or any other pet posting project people have been known for. It is a post about psychology.</edit>
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, April 25, 2011 9:58 AM
According to young Ravel, statements by Dr David Evans on CAGW are to be ignored because he is merely an Electrical Engineer. Accordingly, should statements by Chris Mooney on Psychology be ignored because he is merely a English major? I mean, did he really understand any of those papers he linked to? :)
Everybody is elitist to a certain extent; except me - I'm better than that. Micah
-
According to young Ravel, statements by Dr David Evans on CAGW are to be ignored because he is merely an Electrical Engineer. Accordingly, should statements by Chris Mooney on Psychology be ignored because he is merely a English major? I mean, did he really understand any of those papers he linked to? :)
Everybody is elitist to a certain extent; except me - I'm better than that. Micah
ict558 wrote:
I mean, did he really understand any of those papers he linked to
I recently read, in an article talking about religion and religionists, that one of the first responses to being questioned about their faith is to say that the questioner doesn't have the ecclesiastical or theological training to understand the inner workings of the religion's mysteries. Ultimately this boils down to an upgraded version of "You'll understand when you're older," and is intended merely to place the religionist in a parental, that is to say, superior, position in regards to the questioner.
"Repensum Est Canicula"
-
digital man wrote:
Apply that whichever way round suits: in the meantime I shall continue with my opinion since I've not yet seen anything that makes me think I need to alter it.
I wouldnt use a colon there. The second phrase isnt an elaboration of the first, its just a seperate statement.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
Well pardon the fück out of me: who died and made you king of the keyboard?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
ict558 wrote:
I mean, did he really understand any of those papers he linked to
I recently read, in an article talking about religion and religionists, that one of the first responses to being questioned about their faith is to say that the questioner doesn't have the ecclesiastical or theological training to understand the inner workings of the religion's mysteries. Ultimately this boils down to an upgraded version of "You'll understand when you're older," and is intended merely to place the religionist in a parental, that is to say, superior, position in regards to the questioner.
"Repensum Est Canicula"
Oakman wrote:
You'll understand when you're older
For me, as child and parent, that phrase was used to cover those things that can be explained but not fully comprehended until experienced. Appropriate to the emotional aspects of adult life: sexuality, religion, et al. Certainly, nobody used it with regard to practical subjects. However, I was always older by the time I understood them. :)
Everybody is elitist to a certain extent; except me - I'm better than that. Micah
-
Oakman wrote:
it is amazing how much of religion there is in both economic and environmental theory these days.
Did you arrive at this conclusion by reading scientific journal articles?
Oakman wrote:
I can remember back when science - even the soft sciences - were the natural home of skeptics and questioners.
:laugh: I find it amusing that you consider yourself sufficiently involved in science to make such a comparison.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I find it amusing that you consider yourself sufficiently involved in science to make such a compariso
When did one have to be directly involved in a particular line of endeavor in order to be an accurate and cogent observer of that endeavor? Nothing in Jon's remark suggested that he considered himself to be "involved in" science. Your observation only reveals a rather arrogant presumption about both the requirements to make such observations and your view of your own qualification in that regard. Your arrogance is neither amusing nor becoming.
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
-
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I find it amusing that you consider yourself sufficiently involved in science to make such a compariso
When did one have to be directly involved in a particular line of endeavor in order to be an accurate and cogent observer of that endeavor? Nothing in Jon's remark suggested that he considered himself to be "involved in" science. Your observation only reveals a rather arrogant presumption about both the requirements to make such observations and your view of your own qualification in that regard. Your arrogance is neither amusing nor becoming.
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
Rob Graham wrote:
When did one have to be directly involved in a particular line of endeavor in order to be an accurate and cogent observer of that endeavor?
Except that Oakman is neither. To criticise economics, one should at least appreciate how mathematics-heavy it is; for example, an economist must study topology. A climatologist must study atmospheric thermodynamics, which is almost mind-boggling in technicality. To suggest that all they do is hypothesise and cling to fading dreams is an insult to the generations of excellent minds that have worked so hard for these.
Rob Graham wrote:
Nothing in Jon's remark suggested that he considered himself to be "involved in" science.
He professed to know the minds of both economists and environmental scientists, past and present. He then reflected nostalgically on a time when scientists of all spheres questioned the respective authorities.
-
Oakman wrote:
You'll understand when you're older
For me, as child and parent, that phrase was used to cover those things that can be explained but not fully comprehended until experienced. Appropriate to the emotional aspects of adult life: sexuality, religion, et al. Certainly, nobody used it with regard to practical subjects. However, I was always older by the time I understood them. :)
Everybody is elitist to a certain extent; except me - I'm better than that. Micah
-
Rob Graham wrote:
When did one have to be directly involved in a particular line of endeavor in order to be an accurate and cogent observer of that endeavor?
Except that Oakman is neither. To criticise economics, one should at least appreciate how mathematics-heavy it is; for example, an economist must study topology. A climatologist must study atmospheric thermodynamics, which is almost mind-boggling in technicality. To suggest that all they do is hypothesise and cling to fading dreams is an insult to the generations of excellent minds that have worked so hard for these.
Rob Graham wrote:
Nothing in Jon's remark suggested that he considered himself to be "involved in" science.
He professed to know the minds of both economists and environmental scientists, past and present. He then reflected nostalgically on a time when scientists of all spheres questioned the respective authorities.
-
Rob Graham wrote:
When did one have to be directly involved in a particular line of endeavor in order to be an accurate and cogent observer of that endeavor?
Except that Oakman is neither. To criticise economics, one should at least appreciate how mathematics-heavy it is; for example, an economist must study topology. A climatologist must study atmospheric thermodynamics, which is almost mind-boggling in technicality. To suggest that all they do is hypothesise and cling to fading dreams is an insult to the generations of excellent minds that have worked so hard for these.
Rob Graham wrote:
Nothing in Jon's remark suggested that he considered himself to be "involved in" science.
He professed to know the minds of both economists and environmental scientists, past and present. He then reflected nostalgically on a time when scientists of all spheres questioned the respective authorities.
Let. It. Go.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility