Computer Science or Computer Engineering

Marc Clifton

India and friends are going to kill the programming market in the US. Hi Chris, I disagree! Doing offshore programming requires that a company has well processes for design, communication, testing, documentation, scheduling, milestone management, etc. Above all, it needs to have really good management processes in place, and how many companies have that for inhouse work, let alone farming work offshore? I don't think offshore programming is even an option for small to medium scale projects because they are not cost effective with regards to the required management infrastructure. Only large scale projects can show this to be cost effective, and the ones I've seen failed miserably because the projects didn't have enough up front requirement specifications. Also, the resulting code was of very poor quality. Of interesting note though is that long distance projects are possible, even as a consultant. I have two clients on the west coast (CA) and two here in the New England area. But the west coast clients were established originally because I worked in CA. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.

Taka Muraoka

Marc Clifton wrote: The degree is fluff, because most hiring personnel know that a degree does not equate to experience as far as programming goes Have to disagree with you here! Most hiring personnel don't have the foggiest idea of what it takes to be a good programmer and most of them aren't capable of anything more than matching a list of skills requirements from the employer against a list of your skills on your CV. Here in Oz most of the hiring is done through employment agencies so you have to get through these people before you even get presented to any prospective employer. The job market is woeful everywhere - we all know that - and every little thing you can have on your CV to differentiate yourself from the crowd is going to help. A degree doesn't hold much weight in my eyes when it comes to telling me how good a programmer you are but it does tell me something about your ability to study, to work under pressure (i.e. exams) and your ability to see something through. Having said that, most of the top-flight programmers I have known don't have a degree - go figure :-) Marc Clifton wrote: so that you can get the lucky break that gives you good experience. Sorry, but my career is far too important to leave to lucky breaks. The rest of post is great, btw :laugh:

I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff

Chris Losinger

Marc Clifton wrote: I don't think offshore programming is even an option for small to medium scale projects i do contract programming for anyone who needs it and all of the projects i do are are "small". i almost never talk to a person on the phone; everything is via email. i've done projects for people in Europe, North America and Asia. distance is not a factor. the only limit to the projects i take on are the size, because it's just me doing the work. Marc Clifton wrote: the projects didn't have enough up front requirement specifications that's not the fault of the programmers, and can happen to any project - even those where management and marketing are right down the hall from the programmers. competent programmers can implement a good spec, regardless of the physical location. as long as the specs are good, implementation is basically sewing the parts together. Marc Clifton wrote: Also, the resulting code was of very poor quality. IMO, that's not a factor of offsite programmers. coders in the same building as management can write crappy code, if management and senior programmers don't bother to watch what's going on. lack of code reviews are not the fault of the programmers. -c

There's one easy way to prove the effectiveness of 'letting the market decide' when it comes to environmental protection. It's spelt 'S-U-V'. --Holgate, from Plastic

Smaller Animals Software

Venkatraman

Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, India and friends are going to kill the programming market in the US May i ask in what sense you have mentioned this??? (just for curiosity) :) Best Regards Venkatraman Kalyanam Chennai - India "Being Excellent is not a skill, it is an attitude"

Chris Losinger

Venkatraman wrote: May i ask in what sense you have mentioned this??? the original poster seemed concerned that India was going to take most of the programming jobs away from the US. i agree. it's happened to me already. -c

There's one easy way to prove the effectiveness of 'letting the market decide' when it comes to environmental protection. It's spelt 'S-U-V'. --Holgate, from Plastic

Smaller Animals Software

Marc Clifton

i've done projects for people in Europe, North America and Asia. Very interesting--if you don't mind my asking, how do your clients find you? Is it mostly referral or web site hits? BTW, I liked your website, especially the Proposal Requirements section. It's nice to say up front what you expect from the client. They often don't have a clue. as long as the specs are good, implementation is basically sewing the parts together. But I've never seen a project where, after it's all stitched together, people are happy with the result. I often use interrum deliveries so the client can review and modify the spec. But the projects I take on tend to be in the 1 to 3 year range also, so they're fairly large. I would say that with smaller projects iteration isn't as important. that's not the fault of the programmers Oops, didn't mean that it was. [code of very poor quality]...that's not a factor of offsite programmers I disagree. I think it's a lot harder to verify credentials and capability when your offsite. When contracting an offshore firm, how do you know that the people they give you resumes for are actually the ones doing the work? I've seen US companies fudge this on military contracts--they submit the resumes of the people that they think shine the best for the proposal, but they are rarely the people doing the work. You'd be lucky if they even oversee some part of the project. Heck, they might not even be working there by the time the US gov't accepts the proposal! It's all such a sham. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.

Marc Clifton

Having said that, most of the top-flight programmers I have known don't have a degree That's because they haven't had their creativity beaten out of them. :laugh: Here in Oz most of the hiring is done through employment agencies so you have to get through these people before you even get presented to any prospective employer. I wonder if this is a regional difference. I've gone the employment agency route when living in San Diego CA and without exception, they all said a degree was irrelevant. What mattered a lot more was the right work experience. Of course, that probably says something about the quality of education in the US more than it says about the usefulness of a degree! Also, this was a few years ago when people were desperate for programmers, of any caliber. Venture capital funding was based more on the number of bodies on the project than real investment research. Oh what fun those days were. The rest of post is great, btw Thanks! :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.

Marc Clifton

May i ask in what sense you have mentioned this??? It sounds like someone didn't know that "kill the..." was an expression, not an act of terrorism. Eek. :rolleyes: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.

Giles

I have been programming since I was 10. I'm now 26. When looking at University, I though yes I could do computer programming, but I thought well, if I enjoy it I can get a job now, so why do a computer science degree, unless I want to go into resaearch on the subject, and even then if I did something else I could do a masters in computer science if I thought I wanted to go into the research field. So I chose Physics. Why, because there are less of them. I like the concepts involved and subjects, Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, always have done, and its a good way to really get good at maths. Now the maths element can be usful as Physics really shows you how to use statistics, so you are exposed to powerful tools in maths like Monte Carlo analysis. An guess what I'm a programmer, with sought after skills. Nobody in the team of ten that I run, comes from a computer science background. What I'm saying is. Do what you want, don't worry to much about futire careers. University is there to broaden your horizons. You don't think that people that do history of art, go on to get jobs directly related to history of art? Get skills that are sought after, those that the rest of the heard are not going after. In the long run, you will get more oportunities, and more job security, if you have a broader range of skills. Use university as a chance to tool up in areas where you are interested in things, but are weak on skills. Oh, and one final tip. Nearly all universities allow you to change courses internally if you don't like the course you chose. I inititally chose Civil Engineering, but went for the Physics after 6 weeks, and loved it every minute of it after.

Giles

Chris Losinger wrote: but i doubt it. IMO, India and friends are going to kill the programming market in the US. I'm not so sure. The company I work for had a major project developed by Tartar, for tens of millions. They completly buggered it up. And they also played incredibly dirty withholding all kinds of things they had promised. After that I doubt they will ever touch them again. Its left a very bitter taste.

Chris Losinger

Marc Clifton wrote: how do your clients find you? referral, word of mouth, web search, etc.. i don't do any advertising for the contract work. Marc Clifton wrote: I would say that with smaller projects iteration isn't as important. yeah. i think you're right. the projects i accept are always neatly defined and free of dependencies. they're generally a single control (ActiveX, a DLL, etc) or a simple command line EXE. i don't take a lot of things with fancy UI because people are never happy with UI until they've tweaked it for a while. i don't have to patience to indulge them while they tweak. -c

There's one easy way to prove the effectiveness of 'letting the market decide' when it comes to environmental protection. It's spelt 'S-U-V'. --Holgate, from Plastic

Smaller Animals Software

Joe Woodbury

Based purely on my own experience and comparing engineers I know, the CE majors overall are better programmers than the CS majors with one exception; UI design (which isn't saying much, most CS majors suck at it as well.) Having said that, the best engineers I know didn't major in either. In my personal list of top ten software engineers I've worked with, their degrees are; 4 none*, 2 CE, 2 EE, 1 CS, 1 film. By contrast of the worse engineers I've worked with, ALL had CS degrees and most also had masters and/or PhDs in CS. (To be fair, it's appears that the bad non-CS engineers got weeded out of the field early on.) *none: One dropped out of college one semester short of a degree in classical piano.