Well that proves it then
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God spoke with men called as prophets and they wrote exactly what he told them to. At that point, yes the writings were perfect and the EXACT word of God. However, for example, shortly after Christ died the rest of the apostles were also killed and the apostasy began. God's authority was no longer held by man on earth and there was no longer any on-going revelation between God and prophets which is why the Bible ends. Man then began to put its own interpretation on the writings and man translated, not inspired prophets, the Bible. King James had many, many men, not prophets, translate the Bible to the best of their knowledge. So, yes I believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. But some of the plain and precious truths have been removed, even some of them were removed intentionally. For example, the King James version says the the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart after each of the plagues by Moses. That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them. But you still have not answered my question. Do you believe the timeline in the Bible? I am not trying to argue religious facts about the Bible but merely do you accept the timeline it presents?
ryanb31 wrote:
That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them.
2nd Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Oh yes, that's softening all right. I'm sure you can find a contradictory quote as that is what the Bible is full of. There is a n underlying theme, but the individual pieces are often hogwash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Trying to discuss anything with you is like herding cats, a futile and ultimately pointless exercise. Here's a little mind fuck for you, I believe what the Bible teaches me but not necessarily what it says. When you understand that thread, I'll discuss religion with you. Until then, go back to reading the Scriptures and maybe you'll learn something rather than just remember stuff.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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ryanb31 wrote:
That can't be true because it contradicts all of the other teaching of the Lord's. The Lord will soften hearts, never harden them.
2nd Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Oh yes, that's softening all right. I'm sure you can find a contradictory quote as that is what the Bible is full of. There is a n underlying theme, but the individual pieces are often hogwash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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But you are mistaking man-made religions for the Bible. Where does the Bible claim the earth is flat?
The other man-made religions and their holy books have the same claims of being written with the inspiration of a perfect god and claim to be absolute truth the same as the bible. So you tell me, what makes the claims of your book any more valid than the claims of the religious writings of these other man-made religions. You are the one making extraordinary claims. The burden is on you to prove your claims to be valid, not on others to prove that they are not. I could really care less what the bible says about the earth being flat, or anything else that it claims. It is that the book itself holds no credibility with me because it's claims are not and cannot be validated. I will not believe anything on faith alone because that is simply juvenile and foolish. If you can provide me solid proof that the bible is in fact the word of god then I will certainly accept the claims in the book. I would encourage you to do some truly objective research on the claims of the bible and why you believe what you believe. If you can be truly objective I think you will be surprised on how your thought processes will change. All that being said, I see no contradiction in it that the bible has some good concepts in it like taking care of the less fortunate and such. Those things are good, but my motivation in doing charity work or helping others in need is not based on my sucking up to my god for brownie points, it is done because it makes me feel good to make someone else feel good.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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"changing the rules to coincide with man's discoveries and knowledge?" Do you have an example? You sure have taken this personal and are acting like you know anything about me.
How about something that has basically happened in your short lifetime. Women being allowed to be preachers. In your local church, how often are small new things introduced. The religion is constantly evolving over time, just like everything else. Each generation makes some changes as to how things are done and thought about within the church. Do some serious research on what was believed by your own denomination 100 years ago versus what is believed today. Consider what was considered doctrine 100 years ago versus today. I think you will find that much has changed. Religions that do not evolve go extinct. If we go back a little further, you would do well to notice that the different fragmentations of the church.(i.e Luther and such) were all cases of the original version of the religion becoming outdated and in need of becoming current again. Perhaps you can read up on this. How_has_Christianity_changed_over_time[^] If you disagree with anything in that short summary then feel free to.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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But I am not the one calling names and acting childish. If you want to believe what you believe, go right ahead, but stop calling people who are different than you degrading names just because you cannot understand them.
Where have I called you names and where have I acted childish? Where have I been degrading? Please enlighten me with your exclusive wisdom.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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So how come you won't answer my question? Do you believe in the timeline of the Bible? ANSWER IT FOR ONCE. You are getting frustrated because your logic takes you in circles. That happens when you are wrong. Sorry, but true.
ryanb31 wrote:
You are getting frustrated because your logic takes you in circles.
I'm not going in circles, you are. What ever someone has said to contradict your opinion, your single answer has been they're wrong because it is not what you believe. Can you show me how dating techniques are flawed? No you can't because you have failed to understand how they work. By understanding the principles, you'll be able to see what we're ll talking to you about.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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ryanb31 wrote:
You ignored the whole point. We do not know all of the laws of physics.
You're answering off thread here. I know that we don't know everything, least of all the laws of physics. But I do know that there is a far better understanding now then there was during the [roughly] 3,000 years when the bible was written.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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The other man-made religions and their holy books have the same claims of being written with the inspiration of a perfect god and claim to be absolute truth the same as the bible. So you tell me, what makes the claims of your book any more valid than the claims of the religious writings of these other man-made religions. You are the one making extraordinary claims. The burden is on you to prove your claims to be valid, not on others to prove that they are not. I could really care less what the bible says about the earth being flat, or anything else that it claims. It is that the book itself holds no credibility with me because it's claims are not and cannot be validated. I will not believe anything on faith alone because that is simply juvenile and foolish. If you can provide me solid proof that the bible is in fact the word of god then I will certainly accept the claims in the book. I would encourage you to do some truly objective research on the claims of the bible and why you believe what you believe. If you can be truly objective I think you will be surprised on how your thought processes will change. All that being said, I see no contradiction in it that the bible has some good concepts in it like taking care of the less fortunate and such. Those things are good, but my motivation in doing charity work or helping others in need is not based on my sucking up to my god for brownie points, it is done because it makes me feel good to make someone else feel good.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
"I will not believe anything on faith alone." You contradict yourself. Faith is believing in something you cannot see. You believe some guy in a white coat who told you that something happened 400,000 years ago. That is much more far stretched than believing in the Bible.
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How about something that has basically happened in your short lifetime. Women being allowed to be preachers. In your local church, how often are small new things introduced. The religion is constantly evolving over time, just like everything else. Each generation makes some changes as to how things are done and thought about within the church. Do some serious research on what was believed by your own denomination 100 years ago versus what is believed today. Consider what was considered doctrine 100 years ago versus today. I think you will find that much has changed. Religions that do not evolve go extinct. If we go back a little further, you would do well to notice that the different fragmentations of the church.(i.e Luther and such) were all cases of the original version of the religion becoming outdated and in need of becoming current again. Perhaps you can read up on this. How_has_Christianity_changed_over_time[^] If you disagree with anything in that short summary then feel free to.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Where have I called you names and where have I acted childish? Where have I been degrading? Please enlighten me with your exclusive wisdom.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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ryanb31 wrote:
You are getting frustrated because your logic takes you in circles.
I'm not going in circles, you are. What ever someone has said to contradict your opinion, your single answer has been they're wrong because it is not what you believe. Can you show me how dating techniques are flawed? No you can't because you have failed to understand how they work. By understanding the principles, you'll be able to see what we're ll talking to you about.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
If my answer is a "single answer" as you put it then I could not possibly be going in circles. You are right, my point has not changed. I have not claimed that dating techniques are flawed. On the contrary I have pointed out several times that they MIGHT be right. But there is no way anyone can prove that a dating technique that claims something is 400,000 years old is correct. It is a good theory, but just that, a theory.
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ryanb31 wrote:
You ignored the whole point. We do not know all of the laws of physics.
You're answering off thread here. I know that we don't know everything, least of all the laws of physics. But I do know that there is a far better understanding now then there was during the [roughly] 3,000 years when the bible was written.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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If my answer is a "single answer" as you put it then I could not possibly be going in circles. You are right, my point has not changed. I have not claimed that dating techniques are flawed. On the contrary I have pointed out several times that they MIGHT be right. But there is no way anyone can prove that a dating technique that claims something is 400,000 years old is correct. It is a good theory, but just that, a theory.
So, where is your proof that the Bible is fact rather than just a theory...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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So, where is your proof that the Bible is fact rather than just a theory...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Not looking for lessons in manners. You made some accusations. I'm just asking you to clarify them. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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That is a whole different topic for another day. So, since you have never answered me, I guess you do not believe in the timeline of the Bible. There, that was easy. I answered for you.
No, that is the point that you are trying to make. So put up or shut up, where is your proof?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Not looking for lessons in manners. You made some accusations. I'm just asking you to clarify them. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
I can't find any name calling. He's trying a 'look at the shiny!' argument to move away from the original discussion.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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So, you accept one historical record because your faith is in science and cannot accept a different historical record because some people corrupted religion. The Bible did not teach the earth was flat or the sun revolved around it. How has the theory of evolution "held good - so far?" Since you are 1137 and I am not maybe I am missing something but the theory of evolution has a hole, it cannot explain how something came from nothing. That is not holding good at all. It is an incomplete theory.
ryanb31 wrote:
you accept one historical record because your faith is in science
No, sweetie, I accept the historical records of the Greek philosophers because they have been well documented for over 2,000 years.
ryanb31 wrote:
you... cannot accept a different historical record because some people corrupted religion.
The corruption of religion by "some people" is irrelevant to my choice of historical record. I accept historical records (including those in the Bible) that are largely in accordance with archaeological evidence.
ryanb31 wrote:
The Bible did not teach the earth was flat or the sun revolved around it.
Have you read your Bible? The Old Testament uses the Sumerian/Babylonian cosmology. Earth: relatively flat, fixed, never to be moved. Sun: enters Stage East, climbs the vault of heaven by noon, descends, bows and exits Stage West. Tiptoes back behind vault for the next performance.
ryanb31 wrote:
How has the theory of evolution "held good - so far?"
Well, the advent of genetics, various dating methods, etc. have not managed to disprove it. And it has predicted the existence of species types whose fossils have subsequently been discovered.
ryanb31 wrote:
the theory of evolution has a hole, it cannot explain how something came from nothing.
The Theory of Cognitive Development has the same hole. Could it be that providing an explanation of the Origin of the Universe, (or the Origin of Life, if that is what you are attempting communicate) is not their job?
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
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jschell wrote:
If one starts with the assumption
And that is the nub of the problem. Anyone who makes assumptions is a fool. Would you believe anything I told you just because I told you? Assume nothing, believe only what you can prove. In law an assumption of guilt is not enough, it has to be proved, or would you like to go to jail on the evidence of an accusation?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Anyone who makes assumptions is a fool.
You obviously have no idea how science nor even logic works then.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Would you believe anything I told you just because I told you?
And it seems possible that you don't understand what the word "assumption" means. And certainly not in the context in which I presented it.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Assume nothing, believe only what you can prove.
You can't prove anything without assumptions.
Dalek Dave wrote:
In law an assumption of guilt is not enough, it has to be proved, or would you like to go to jail on the evidence of an accusation?
Certainly a hideous analogy. And even worse based on the specifics of the last. The US judicial system is full of examples of failures.