Bill Hicks - Creationists
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Not proof in the scientific sense no.
Then no proof at all. What you believe in the confines of your head does not count as proof.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Oh, it's more than in the confines of my head. And it is pure knowledge, not mere belief. But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself. Call it what you will but it is possible to come to the knowledge of truth other than by the usual suspects.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Oh, it's more than in the confines of my head. And it is pure knowledge, not mere belief. But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself. Call it what you will but it is possible to come to the knowledge of truth other than by the usual suspects.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself.
I think I know something of this experience you speak of. I had one too, many years ago. I was sure I felt God's presence; I knew it, as you say you do now. It was a very emotional setting, I was going through a rough time with some friends who were in deep trouble. And I felt It. I don't believe in God now. I believe, now, that what I felt came completely from myself, encouraged by the companionship with the people I was with. The fact that it came from me, and not some ethereal, unreliable external force, is actually very, very comforting to me, to know that my brain is capable of producing such feelings. It was a chemical release of some kind, probably, but it doesn't diminish the fact that it came from me and me alone. You may believe it was God working through that chemical release to bring me comfort. I skip a step, that is all. So my 1990 self knowing was not proof at all, it wasn't even evidence. It was a mistake.
Look at me still talking when there's science to do When I look out there it makes me glad I'm not you
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Oh, it's more than in the confines of my head. And it is pure knowledge, not mere belief. But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself. Call it what you will but it is possible to come to the knowledge of truth other than by the usual suspects.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunSo elucidate. The point for me is that if you cannot offer any tangible proof then you have nothing but your belief: it is plainly not knowledge since it can't be quantified or reproduced. I do believe that you believe what you are saying and are honest and earnest. However, your faith, of itself, does not render your belief to be true to anyone other than yourself and, if you can't share, then all we have is your word which is unsupported. Note that I do not care what you believe in; I do care that you think I should or will when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself.
I think I know something of this experience you speak of. I had one too, many years ago. I was sure I felt God's presence; I knew it, as you say you do now. It was a very emotional setting, I was going through a rough time with some friends who were in deep trouble. And I felt It. I don't believe in God now. I believe, now, that what I felt came completely from myself, encouraged by the companionship with the people I was with. The fact that it came from me, and not some ethereal, unreliable external force, is actually very, very comforting to me, to know that my brain is capable of producing such feelings. It was a chemical release of some kind, probably, but it doesn't diminish the fact that it came from me and me alone. You may believe it was God working through that chemical release to bring me comfort. I skip a step, that is all. So my 1990 self knowing was not proof at all, it wasn't even evidence. It was a mistake.
Look at me still talking when there's science to do When I look out there it makes me glad I'm not you
It is nothing like what you speak of. I've had those too, but what I speak of is different.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
So elucidate. The point for me is that if you cannot offer any tangible proof then you have nothing but your belief: it is plainly not knowledge since it can't be quantified or reproduced. I do believe that you believe what you are saying and are honest and earnest. However, your faith, of itself, does not render your belief to be true to anyone other than yourself and, if you can't share, then all we have is your word which is unsupported. Note that I do not care what you believe in; I do care that you think I should or will when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
all we have is your word
True. Not much to go on, is it?
mark merrens wrote:
I do care that you think I should
I think you should find out for yourself. Think for yourself. I only ask you to be and do good.
mark merrens wrote:
I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy
Understandable.
mark merrens wrote:
blind faith leads to intellectual blindness
True that. I always try to be open-minded and often test the state of my knowledge (what little knowledge I do have, some of it probably suspect). You ask me to elucidate. I can only tell you what I know, but it's like witnessing an event and then trying to tell others about it. But there's no apparent evidence that the event ever took place, other than my word and description. People would have to take your word for what you witnessed, if they trusted you they might believe, but could never know for themselves unless they witnessed their own "private event". Such is it with me. I know for myself. I can not "give" you that knowledge. You have to seek your own. I can only tell you that "I know." You may not believe me and you may find it incredulous, yet I know what I know, I can not deny what I have witnessed and experienced. Any more than Marco Polo could deny having been to China and back, whether people of his time believed his stories or not. So it is with me. I have taken the journey. You must take your own. Or not. It matters not to me.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Unfortunately, it's not that easy. It's not the kind of proof that can be shared other than by talking about it and encouraging others to get their own proof.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not that easy. It's not the kind of proof that can be shared other than by talking about it and encouraging others to get their own proof.
That is specifically not "proof". That is belief. Nothing wrong with belief but understanding that it isn't proof is basic to understanding what the word means.
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So, no proof at all then. I made no ad hom attack, I merely pointed out that whatever you saw that made you believe in god is no more believable than the poor sods who claim to have been abducted by aliens. As for the Religionists killing people, the evidence is overwhelming.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I made no ad hom attack, I merely pointed out that whatever you saw that made you believe in god is no more believable than the poor sods who claim to have been abducted by aliens.
That is either using the wrong terminology and/or is phrased badly. You might not accept (believe) the statement made based on the content of the statement. But that has nothing to do with what others believe nor why they believe it.
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Oh, it's more than in the confines of my head. And it is pure knowledge, not mere belief. But, I don't expect you to believe me and don't fault you for not doing so. I wouldn't believe it either, if I hadn't experienced it myself. Call it what you will but it is possible to come to the knowledge of truth other than by the usual suspects.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
And it is pure knowledge, not mere belief.
Nonsense. It is a belief. That is the definition of the word.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Call it what you will but it is possible to come to the knowledge of truth other than by the usual suspects.
Which is a definition for "belief". One doesn't need another word for it. Nor should one need to rationalize that it isn't a belief.
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So elucidate. The point for me is that if you cannot offer any tangible proof then you have nothing but your belief: it is plainly not knowledge since it can't be quantified or reproduced. I do believe that you believe what you are saying and are honest and earnest. However, your faith, of itself, does not render your belief to be true to anyone other than yourself and, if you can't share, then all we have is your word which is unsupported. Note that I do not care what you believe in; I do care that you think I should or will when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
I doubt that. I accept without question that I will not die tonight and that I will rise tomorrow. The fact that there is a possibility that that might happen is not something that has any impact at all on my life. And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith". And they make even wilder faith based predictions in that they will be alive next week, next year and even 20 years from now. This of course includes even the most fanatic skeptics. In also ignores the actual personal impact that significant faith has. For example I don't want to go to a medical doctor that believes that only prayer can cure ills. On the other hand if I go to a priest (or a voodoo doctor for that matter) I would certainly expect that they would actually believe and believe strongly in the words and practices that they might deliver. If that wasn't the case they that person would be practicing a deplorable form of hypocrisy.
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mark merrens wrote:
when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
I doubt that. I accept without question that I will not die tonight and that I will rise tomorrow. The fact that there is a possibility that that might happen is not something that has any impact at all on my life. And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith". And they make even wilder faith based predictions in that they will be alive next week, next year and even 20 years from now. This of course includes even the most fanatic skeptics. In also ignores the actual personal impact that significant faith has. For example I don't want to go to a medical doctor that believes that only prayer can cure ills. On the other hand if I go to a priest (or a voodoo doctor for that matter) I would certainly expect that they would actually believe and believe strongly in the words and practices that they might deliver. If that wasn't the case they that person would be practicing a deplorable form of hypocrisy.
jschell wrote:
I accept without question that I will not die tonight and that I will rise tomorrow. The fact that there is a possibility that that might happen is not something that has any impact at all on my life.
And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith". And they make even wilder faith based predictions in that they will be alive next week, next year and even 20 years from now.Not the same thing at all. Blind faith in an invisible, omnipotent entity is not the same as 'I know I'll live till morning'.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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mark merrens wrote:
when I consider your faith to be tantamount to fantasy and, at that, a dangerous one since blind faith leads to intellectual blindness.
I doubt that. I accept without question that I will not die tonight and that I will rise tomorrow. The fact that there is a possibility that that might happen is not something that has any impact at all on my life. And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith". And they make even wilder faith based predictions in that they will be alive next week, next year and even 20 years from now. This of course includes even the most fanatic skeptics. In also ignores the actual personal impact that significant faith has. For example I don't want to go to a medical doctor that believes that only prayer can cure ills. On the other hand if I go to a priest (or a voodoo doctor for that matter) I would certainly expect that they would actually believe and believe strongly in the words and practices that they might deliver. If that wasn't the case they that person would be practicing a deplorable form of hypocrisy.
jschell wrote:
And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith".
OK, I'm insane. Of course I organised my life as if I believed I would rise tomorrow, but "faith" in rising the next morning? No, just probability.
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
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Funny guy. I guess he and Christopher Hitchens are bitching up a storm now that they both know they were wrong.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunUmm I think Bill believes in live after death. Life is Just a Ride He'd just rather go to hell because they play Rock 'n Roll
"You get that on the big jobs."
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jschell wrote:
I accept without question that I will not die tonight and that I will rise tomorrow. The fact that there is a possibility that that might happen is not something that has any impact at all on my life.
And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith". And they make even wilder faith based predictions in that they will be alive next week, next year and even 20 years from now.Not the same thing at all. Blind faith in an invisible, omnipotent entity is not the same as 'I know I'll live till morning'.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
Not the same thing at all. Blind faith in an invisible, omnipotent entity is not the same as 'I know I'll live till morning'.
Both are beliefs. That the content of each belief is different is evident. However, that you disagree with one and not the other doesn't mean that both are not beliefs.
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jschell wrote:
And except for the insane and those in very extreme circumstances everyone operates on the same "blind faith".
OK, I'm insane. Of course I organised my life as if I believed I would rise tomorrow, but "faith" in rising the next morning? No, just probability.
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
ict558 wrote:
Of course I organised my life as if I believed I would rise tomorrow, but "faith" in rising the next morning? No, just probability.
As I already said only the insane and those in extreme circumstances rationally view it that way. When you make lunch plans for a co-worker/friend for tomorrow or next week you do not think "there is a 99.9998% chance that I will be alive then so lets go for it". You have no conscious choice about your day to day chances for life in the future because you believe (and I use that word specifically) that you will be alive. You might assert that you recognize that there is in fact a probability that you won't be alive but you don't use that knowledge in your day to day life because it is much easier to just believe in your life expectancy (and many other things as well.)
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ict558 wrote:
Of course I organised my life as if I believed I would rise tomorrow, but "faith" in rising the next morning? No, just probability.
As I already said only the insane and those in extreme circumstances rationally view it that way. When you make lunch plans for a co-worker/friend for tomorrow or next week you do not think "there is a 99.9998% chance that I will be alive then so lets go for it". You have no conscious choice about your day to day chances for life in the future because you believe (and I use that word specifically) that you will be alive. You might assert that you recognize that there is in fact a probability that you won't be alive but you don't use that knowledge in your day to day life because it is much easier to just believe in your life expectancy (and many other things as well.)
jschell wrote:
As I already said only the insane and those in extreme circumstances rationally view it that way.
And as I already said: "OK, I'm insane."
jschell wrote:
When you make lunch plans for a co-worker/friend for tomorrow or next week you do not think "there is a 99.9998% chance that I will be alive then so lets go for it". You have no conscious choice about your day to day chances for life in the future because you believe (and I use that word specifically) that you will be alive.
You might assert that you recognize that there is in fact a probability that you won't be alive but you don't use that knowledge in your day to day life because it is much easier to just believe in your life expectancy (and many other things as well.)Thank you so much for telling me what / how I think. :) You believe in your life expectancy? How interesting. How many variables (gender, race, age, nationality, region, height, weight, ... ) do you introduce? Do you omit those that reduce your expectancy, or would you be happy with, say, 5 years?
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
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jschell wrote:
As I already said only the insane and those in extreme circumstances rationally view it that way.
And as I already said: "OK, I'm insane."
jschell wrote:
When you make lunch plans for a co-worker/friend for tomorrow or next week you do not think "there is a 99.9998% chance that I will be alive then so lets go for it". You have no conscious choice about your day to day chances for life in the future because you believe (and I use that word specifically) that you will be alive.
You might assert that you recognize that there is in fact a probability that you won't be alive but you don't use that knowledge in your day to day life because it is much easier to just believe in your life expectancy (and many other things as well.)Thank you so much for telling me what / how I think. :) You believe in your life expectancy? How interesting. How many variables (gender, race, age, nationality, region, height, weight, ... ) do you introduce? Do you omit those that reduce your expectancy, or would you be happy with, say, 5 years?
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
ict558 wrote:
You believe in your life expectancy? How interesting.
Yes.
ict558 wrote:
How many variables (gender, race, age, nationality, region, height, weight, ... ) do you introduce?
Do you omit those that reduce your expectancy, or would you be happy with, say, 5 years?No idea what you are talking about. I suspect that you didn't understand what I said. Your statements suggest that you think that I am analyzing the probability of my life expectancy. And I said exactly the opposite. My decisions day to day are based on the belief, and nothing else, that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year and 10 years from now.
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ict558 wrote:
You believe in your life expectancy? How interesting.
Yes.
ict558 wrote:
How many variables (gender, race, age, nationality, region, height, weight, ... ) do you introduce?
Do you omit those that reduce your expectancy, or would you be happy with, say, 5 years?No idea what you are talking about. I suspect that you didn't understand what I said. Your statements suggest that you think that I am analyzing the probability of my life expectancy. And I said exactly the opposite. My decisions day to day are based on the belief, and nothing else, that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year and 10 years from now.
jschell wrote:
No idea what you are talking about.
Life expectancy: the expected (in the statistical sense) number of years of life remaining at a given age.
jschell wrote:
I suspect that you didn't understand what I said.
Well, I certainly didn't understand that by 'life expectancy' you meant some arbitrary age of your choice, rather than one for your demographic profile.
jschell wrote:
Your statements suggest that you think that I am analyzing the probability of my life expectancy.
Only because you used the term 'life expectancy', and even then I did not expect you to perform an analysis, merely to refer to the appropriate tables.
jschell wrote:
And I said exactly the opposite.
So how do you arrive at that 'life expectancy' you believe in? Or will you merely "accept without question that [you] will not die tonight and that [you] will rise tomorrow" until you die? Pretty close to believing in your immortality. (Presumably, then, you have no Will, no Life Assurance, ... or similar provision "that has any impact at all on [your] life"?)
jschell wrote:
My decisions day to day are based on the belief, and nothing else, that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year and 10 years from now.
My decisions day to day are based on the varying degrees of probability that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year, and 10 years from now. But I doubt that any outsider would discern much difference in my daily behaviour and that of one who believes as you. (Except for my Life Assurance, Will, and 'What to do when I die' folder of pro-forma letters for Mrs. ict558, etc. :) )
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
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jschell wrote:
No idea what you are talking about.
Life expectancy: the expected (in the statistical sense) number of years of life remaining at a given age.
jschell wrote:
I suspect that you didn't understand what I said.
Well, I certainly didn't understand that by 'life expectancy' you meant some arbitrary age of your choice, rather than one for your demographic profile.
jschell wrote:
Your statements suggest that you think that I am analyzing the probability of my life expectancy.
Only because you used the term 'life expectancy', and even then I did not expect you to perform an analysis, merely to refer to the appropriate tables.
jschell wrote:
And I said exactly the opposite.
So how do you arrive at that 'life expectancy' you believe in? Or will you merely "accept without question that [you] will not die tonight and that [you] will rise tomorrow" until you die? Pretty close to believing in your immortality. (Presumably, then, you have no Will, no Life Assurance, ... or similar provision "that has any impact at all on [your] life"?)
jschell wrote:
My decisions day to day are based on the belief, and nothing else, that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year and 10 years from now.
My decisions day to day are based on the varying degrees of probability that I will be alive tomorrow, next month, next year, and 10 years from now. But I doubt that any outsider would discern much difference in my daily behaviour and that of one who believes as you. (Except for my Life Assurance, Will, and 'What to do when I die' folder of pro-forma letters for Mrs. ict558, etc. :) )
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
ict558 wrote:
Pretty close to believing in your immortality.
Nope. I believe that at some future time I will reach a point where I do not expect to be alive within a short period of time in the future.
ict558 wrote:
My decisions day to day are based on the varying degrees of probability that I will be alive tomorrow,...
I am rather certain that the vast majority of people in the world do not consider that probability when making a lunch appointment for the following day.
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ict558 wrote:
Pretty close to believing in your immortality.
Nope. I believe that at some future time I will reach a point where I do not expect to be alive within a short period of time in the future.
ict558 wrote:
My decisions day to day are based on the varying degrees of probability that I will be alive tomorrow,...
I am rather certain that the vast majority of people in the world do not consider that probability when making a lunch appointment for the following day.
jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that the vast majority of people in the world do not consider that probability when making a lunch appointment for the following day.
That maybe so, but I do. And the upside is: my documentation is always up-to-date. :-D
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.
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jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that the vast majority of people in the world do not consider that probability when making a lunch appointment for the following day.
That maybe so, but I do. And the upside is: my documentation is always up-to-date. :-D
If people made the effort to read something three times before commenting, blogs would be much more useful places. - Anon.