Professional programmer - When?
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I'm not sure that professional necessarily is equal to good (although it should be!) As far as I've always understood it - in any field, not just programming - you are a professional once you start getting paid for the particular skill. As I said, unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean you are good, but if you aren't good at the skill, this state of being probably won't last too long :)
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some-it won't hurt you'... -Christian Graus on Code Project outages His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a tumble dryer. It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to he wall**-Shaun Wilde**
Megan Forbes wrote: once you start getting paid for the particular skill Then it's long time left before I'm professional! :) Megan Forbes wrote: unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean you are good, but if you aren't good at the skill, this state of being probably won't last too long Exactly! If you're not good you can't be a professional... that's my opinium! You have to know what you're doing more than a little! But I see what "professional" means now, and in future, I will be a professional programmer - who can his work! Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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Rickard Andersson wrote: Well, what is your opinium about this? A professional programmer is someone who makes a living out of programming. i.e. Programming is my profession. No skill or knowledge level involved. At least that is how I think it is supposed to be. Civilization has twisted it to mean, like you suggest, a reading of someones skill level.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
Paul Watson wrote: No skill or knowledge level involved. But when I read on the back of books about what skills you should have to understand the book, there are thee options: Beginner, Novice or Professional. What do they mean with Professional in such case? Do I need to be employed to understand the book enough? :wtf: Or are they just misusing the word "Professional"? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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When do you call yourself a professional programmer? Are You a professional programmer? Are you a professional... ... when you know the language full out? ... when you know much about ATL, COM, SOAP, .NET etc. etc. etc... Short: When you know much about different technologies ... when you don't need so much help like before? ... when someone say to you that you are a professional? :) Well, what is your opinium about this? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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Paul Watson wrote: No skill or knowledge level involved. But when I read on the back of books about what skills you should have to understand the book, there are thee options: Beginner, Novice or Professional. What do they mean with Professional in such case? Do I need to be employed to understand the book enough? :wtf: Or are they just misusing the word "Professional"? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
Rickard Andersson wrote: What do they mean with Professional in such case? Do I need to be employed to understand the book enough? Or are they just misusing the word "Professional"? While yes I think they are mis-using the word Professional it is pretty pointless to try and change it now. By Professional on the back of a book they are using the common misconception to make you understand that the book is for hard core geeks and not beginners or intermediates. And no you do not have to be employed to understand the book. As we have seen there are some hectically good programmers out there who are not employed. There are also young programmers who know a lot but are not yet employed.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
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I would never be a professional programmer, I'm an artist! :-D
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
KaЯl wrote: I would never be a professional programmer, I'm an artist! :laugh: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... ;P So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal... :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
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I would never be a professional programmer, I'm an artist! :-D
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
Same here. I only code abstract things with as little obvious meaning as possible. :-D -- This space for rent.
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Rickard Andersson wrote: What do they mean with Professional in such case? Do I need to be employed to understand the book enough? Or are they just misusing the word "Professional"? While yes I think they are mis-using the word Professional it is pretty pointless to try and change it now. By Professional on the back of a book they are using the common misconception to make you understand that the book is for hard core geeks and not beginners or intermediates. And no you do not have to be employed to understand the book. As we have seen there are some hectically good programmers out there who are not employed. There are also young programmers who know a lot but are not yet employed.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
Paul Watson wrote: And no you do not have to be employed to understand the book. As we have seen there are some hectically good programmers out there who are not employed. There are also young programmers who know a lot but are not yet employed. Nowdays I only buy books that is recommended to intermediates and professionals. They aren't hard to understand if you know much about programming I think... I have about 3+ years of C++ experience and I know the language pretty full out. It's just tat OO I can't handle yet. But I'll start some courses soon and then... :) Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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When do you call yourself a professional programmer? Are You a professional programmer? Are you a professional... ... when you know the language full out? ... when you know much about ATL, COM, SOAP, .NET etc. etc. etc... Short: When you know much about different technologies ... when you don't need so much help like before? ... when someone say to you that you are a professional? :) Well, what is your opinium about this? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
Professional comes from the word Profession. It's as Paul says, the word has been twisted. The swedish counterpart is as twisted as well. It seems like it's implied that someone who is called professional is very good at what he/she is doing. This is not always the case I'm afraid. :) -- This space for rent.
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KaЯl wrote: I would never be a professional programmer, I'm an artist! :laugh: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... ;P So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal... :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
Paul Watson wrote: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... Nutnutnut... your remark gives me a poor idea of the level of education in South Africa ;P Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Paul Watson wrote: So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal If my target was to work to be rich, I would be a marketing guy :-D (My moral forbids that :))
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
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Paul Watson wrote: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... Nutnutnut... your remark gives me a poor idea of the level of education in South Africa ;P Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Paul Watson wrote: So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal If my target was to work to be rich, I would be a marketing guy :-D (My moral forbids that :))
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
KaЯl wrote: Nutnutnut :laugh: :-D "Nutnutnut" gives me a good indication of the French education system as it is supposed to be "Tuttuttut"... ;) KaЯl wrote: Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Yes but for every great French artist there are ten million wannabe artists imposing on the senses of the rest of the world. ;)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
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KaЯl wrote: Nutnutnut :laugh: :-D "Nutnutnut" gives me a good indication of the French education system as it is supposed to be "Tuttuttut"... ;) KaЯl wrote: Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Yes but for every great French artist there are ten million wannabe artists imposing on the senses of the rest of the world. ;)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
Paul Watson wrote: Yes but for every great French artist there are ten million wannabe artists imposing on the senses of the rest of the world And obviously you think I'm in the ten million...[shakinghead]Nutnutnut[/shakinghead] :-D You will see, some day, after my Death, my art will be recognized ;)
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
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Professional comes from the word Profession. It's as Paul says, the word has been twisted. The swedish counterpart is as twisted as well. It seems like it's implied that someone who is called professional is very good at what he/she is doing. This is not always the case I'm afraid. :) -- This space for rent.
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Paul Watson wrote: And no you do not have to be employed to understand the book. As we have seen there are some hectically good programmers out there who are not employed. There are also young programmers who know a lot but are not yet employed. Nowdays I only buy books that is recommended to intermediates and professionals. They aren't hard to understand if you know much about programming I think... I have about 3+ years of C++ experience and I know the language pretty full out. It's just tat OO I can't handle yet. But I'll start some courses soon and then... :) Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
Rickard Andersson wrote: I have about 3+ years of C++ experience and I know the language pretty full out. Muuhhahahaa! That's what I thought too.. :rolleyes: You'll learn something new every now and then in C++ for the next 6 years too I'm sure. I've used C++ on and off for 9 years now (before templates and other bells and whistles). I still find new ways to do things that I hadn't thought of previously. Templates and metaprogramming is one area where I've only scratched the surface. -- This space for rent.
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Rickard Andersson wrote: I have about 3+ years of C++ experience and I know the language pretty full out. Muuhhahahaa! That's what I thought too.. :rolleyes: You'll learn something new every now and then in C++ for the next 6 years too I'm sure. I've used C++ on and off for 9 years now (before templates and other bells and whistles). I still find new ways to do things that I hadn't thought of previously. Templates and metaprogramming is one area where I've only scratched the surface. -- This space for rent.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Muuhhahahaa! That's what I thought too.. If I change and say: "I know the syntax and all the C++ goodies very well, except from the OO specific things!" :-D Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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When do you call yourself a professional programmer? Are You a professional programmer? Are you a professional... ... when you know the language full out? ... when you know much about ATL, COM, SOAP, .NET etc. etc. etc... Short: When you know much about different technologies ... when you don't need so much help like before? ... when someone say to you that you are a professional? :) Well, what is your opinium about this? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
I can make two suggestions: 1. It's when you start developing code thinking of how others might use it effectively. 2. It's the point at which you are finally content to call yourself "just" a programmer. You usually arrive at this point *after* you've called yourself, at various points in your career, a programmer, then a developer, then an analyst/programmer then a software engineer and then a technical architect. Please note that if anyone is offended that I have ranked analyst/programmer above a developer, then you've missed the point :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Paul Watson wrote: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... Nutnutnut... your remark gives me a poor idea of the level of education in South Africa ;P Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Paul Watson wrote: So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal If my target was to work to be rich, I would be a marketing guy :-D (My moral forbids that :))
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
KaЯl wrote: Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Damn, I hoped you were going to say Chopin as well, at which point, I would've taken great delight at pointing out the fact that he was, in fact, Polish. Incidentally, did you know Debussy died of rectal cancer? :( "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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When do you call yourself a professional programmer? Are You a professional programmer? Are you a professional... ... when you know the language full out? ... when you know much about ATL, COM, SOAP, .NET etc. etc. etc... Short: When you know much about different technologies ... when you don't need so much help like before? ... when someone say to you that you are a professional? :) Well, what is your opinium about this? Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN! UIN: 50302279 E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
I've never called myself a "Professional" anything...it's just a label, and labels are something that have caused me pain in the past. Likewise letters after my name don't bother me either. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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Paul Watson wrote: Oh god, he is French AND a wannabe artist. God help us all... Nutnutnut... your remark gives me a poor idea of the level of education in South Africa ;P Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Paul Watson wrote: So by definition you must suffer for your art, and only make money off it once you are dead. Sweet deal If my target was to work to be rich, I would be a marketing guy :-D (My moral forbids that :))
I hurt so bad inside I wish you could see the world through my eyes It stays the same I just wanna laugh again
KaЯl wrote: Nutnutnut... :laugh: I must find a reason to use this often :cool:
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some-it won't hurt you'... -Christian Graus on Code Project outages His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a tumble dryer. It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to he wall**-Shaun Wilde**
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KaЯl wrote: Neve heard or read the names of Debussy, Ravel, Berlioz, Manet, Renoir, Delacroix, Rodin, Bartholdi, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Ronsard ? Damn, I hoped you were going to say Chopin as well, at which point, I would've taken great delight at pointing out the fact that he was, in fact, Polish. Incidentally, did you know Debussy died of rectal cancer? :( "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
phykell wrote: did you know Debussy died of rectal cancer? I guess you could say he got his in the end. :~ BW "Computers are useless. They only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso
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KaЯl wrote: Nutnutnut... :laugh: I must find a reason to use this often :cool:
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some-it won't hurt you'... -Christian Graus on Code Project outages His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a tumble dryer. It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to he wall**-Shaun Wilde**