What if working as a freelancer needs you to hand out personal copyrighted dlls?
-
It's source required to produce the product you made for them... it's part of the project. Like I said, this should have been cleared up before-hand. If they hire you to make a product, then saying "I made the product, but you don't have access to 30% of the source because it's in my personal libraries" is not really acceptable, or wouldn't be for me... as a project manager. Then again, our contracts explicitly spell out that all work made is company property.
Albert Holguin wrote:
source required to produce the product you made for them... it's part of the project
Exactly. :thumbsup: Bits that aren't used for the product shouldn't be on the system at all. And if there's code you wrote that you don't want them to have, don't use it in the product.
-
I disagree.
Alberto Bar-Noy wrote:
your source code is money
Software is meant to be free.
Alberto Bar-Noy wrote:
why would the client want the source code?
Partly to see what kind of quality it has. If you're reluctant to show your code, it's probably horrible.
I couldn't disagree more.. I get paid for my expertise. Over the years I have created a codebase - personal framework - that gives me the ability to finish projects that would take 1 month in less that a week. That is not to be shared, it would be like hiring an inexperienced emploee for a job and he would be using a guru doing his work free of charge. Nothing is meant to be free, otherwise people would pay for it... If we want to hand out code out of generosity, that does not in anyway mean that code or software should bre free... :laugh: Let's not start trolling with each other and continue our conversation with examples and point of views.
-
It's source required to produce the product you made for them... it's part of the project. Like I said, this should have been cleared up before-hand. If they hire you to make a product, then saying "I made the product, but you don't have access to 30% of the source because it's in my personal libraries" is not really acceptable, or wouldn't be for me... as a project manager. Then again, our contracts explicitly spell out that all work made is company property.
I see now that you don't really grasp the idea. Code would still be reused, developed etc. Do you have the code in mscorelib.dll of visual studio? You use it.
-
I see now that you don't really grasp the idea. Code would still be reused, developed etc. Do you have the code in mscorelib.dll of visual studio? You use it.
I see that you're just trying to justify your actions... when you use mscorelib.dll, you know up-front that you don't have access to the source. Did you tell them up-front? That's what I explained earlier to you.
-
I think perhaps you misunderstood me -- the client gets all the source.
No, no... we're on the same page... meant on the other-side of the contractor/client relationship. :)
-
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
And the client did not even honour the payment as initially agreed.
imho this puts the whole situation in a very different "light." The question that becomes essential to answer is then: did the client not pay you a promised initial amount before these issues arose around source code ? If the client is in "default" on an initial promised payment made before any disputes, then you owe the client nothing, imho. I believe, at least in America, you'd have the right to sue for that promised payment: whether it would be worth the time and expense of suing, of course, is another issue. However, if the client is now in possession of some of your valuable work, and can use it, and has not yet paid you for it: then, imho, you are: "over a barrell." And, then again, if the client cannot fully get value from what they may have now, without your further co-operation: then you, as well, have "leverage" in this situation. The only idea I can think of is to propose a "cooling off period" ... if the dispute is getting nasty ... and also propose negotiating a settlement using 3rd. party arbitration: there are lawyers who specialize in such. good luck, in any case, Bill
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle
I am afraid that in his hole in the world if it is not written it did not exist. Verbal contracts are non-significant and lawyers would have him pay his revenues of the next 10 years to take it to court...
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
I see that you're just trying to justify your actions... when you use mscorelib.dll, you know up-front that you don't have access to the source. Did you tell them up-front? That's what I explained earlier to you.
Which brings us all back to the point where... they have nothing written down. It is verbal. Hence a mess.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
-
Which brings us all back to the point where... they have nothing written down. It is verbal. Hence a mess.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
It is a mess... :doh:
-
Which brings us all back to the point where... they have nothing written down. It is verbal. Hence a mess.
Alberto Bar-Noy --------------- “The city’s central computer told you? R2D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!” (C3PO)
Exactly. And that covers it all. Nothing "should" be given, and foremore nothing different is given that what was asked. Everything asked is and should be priced and written down and that's that. Which is exactly the point of the discussion. And to answer to previous post to Albert Holguin, nor I am "justifying" anything or need to. I handed out all asked and didn't even got paid what agreed. I think he is a bit pre-occupied since being on the "other side" :).
-
Exactly. And that covers it all. Nothing "should" be given, and foremore nothing different is given that what was asked. Everything asked is and should be priced and written down and that's that. Which is exactly the point of the discussion. And to answer to previous post to Albert Holguin, nor I am "justifying" anything or need to. I handed out all asked and didn't even got paid what agreed. I think he is a bit pre-occupied since being on the "other side" :).
I venture to say that you may not have been paid for not providing what they expected. In any case, you asked for our opinion and you got it.
-
I couldn't disagree more.. I get paid for my expertise. Over the years I have created a codebase - personal framework - that gives me the ability to finish projects that would take 1 month in less that a week. That is not to be shared, it would be like hiring an inexperienced emploee for a job and he would be using a guru doing his work free of charge. Nothing is meant to be free, otherwise people would pay for it... If we want to hand out code out of generosity, that does not in anyway mean that code or software should bre free... :laugh: Let's not start trolling with each other and continue our conversation with examples and point of views.
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
Let's not start trolling with each other and continue our conversation with examples and point of views.
You asked for our point of view... I would hardly call it trolling to express it.
-
I venture to say that you may not have been paid for not providing what they expected. In any case, you asked for our opinion and you got it.
No, in no case. I got paid less than agreed after providing all expected. The case with the code became afterwards. I allready described the case in the beginning. For another time, after not getting what expected in payment I would only give code after payment. You keep showing that you are preoccupied... From my side, even though this is a discussion originating to developers I do honour and want to hear clearly from all sides. The facts are: 1.Code should be given to clients. No question about that. 2.Clients hire experienced developers coming with frameworks that can finish work in more professional way and in far less time that rewritting from scratch or cleaning down. 3.In case a professional has a framework it should be stated that it is going to be used and no code inner source should be given unless otherwise stated, in which case as all outsourcing companies do, the source is extra money. And non related to work but very important: 4.When nothing is written nothing is expected, unfortunatelly either from payment or from work.
-
No, in no case. I got paid less than agreed after providing all expected. The case with the code became afterwards. I allready described the case in the beginning. For another time, after not getting what expected in payment I would only give code after payment. You keep showing that you are preoccupied... From my side, even though this is a discussion originating to developers I do honour and want to hear clearly from all sides. The facts are: 1.Code should be given to clients. No question about that. 2.Clients hire experienced developers coming with frameworks that can finish work in more professional way and in far less time that rewritting from scratch or cleaning down. 3.In case a professional has a framework it should be stated that it is going to be used and no code inner source should be given unless otherwise stated, in which case as all outsourcing companies do, the source is extra money. And non related to work but very important: 4.When nothing is written nothing is expected, unfortunatelly either from payment or from work.
And I have too worked as a Project Manager and Team Leader, and absolutely know the risks and hazards from that side.
-
No, in no case. I got paid less than agreed after providing all expected. The case with the code became afterwards. I allready described the case in the beginning. For another time, after not getting what expected in payment I would only give code after payment. You keep showing that you are preoccupied... From my side, even though this is a discussion originating to developers I do honour and want to hear clearly from all sides. The facts are: 1.Code should be given to clients. No question about that. 2.Clients hire experienced developers coming with frameworks that can finish work in more professional way and in far less time that rewritting from scratch or cleaning down. 3.In case a professional has a framework it should be stated that it is going to be used and no code inner source should be given unless otherwise stated, in which case as all outsourcing companies do, the source is extra money. And non related to work but very important: 4.When nothing is written nothing is expected, unfortunatelly either from payment or from work.
I am a developer... I'm not a contractor...
-
I am a developer... I'm not a contractor...
A few messages above you addressed yourself as a project manager. No reason to point accusations about my work, in any case, though. I know what I handed out, I never even give only what expected but more as a token of good faith and because I am 10 years in the business and having a good name is vital. So again, all requested was handed, tested, approved, welcomed and appreciated. Payment after that was less than agreed and was justified as the "current situation" that exists in Europe at the time, in no way -not even as an excuse- there was any notion about my work being not acceptable or less than requested in any way. Client then asks for everything from code, without payment. In no project and no country that is correct.
-
A few messages above you addressed yourself as a project manager. No reason to point accusations about my work, in any case, though. I know what I handed out, I never even give only what expected but more as a token of good faith and because I am 10 years in the business and having a good name is vital. So again, all requested was handed, tested, approved, welcomed and appreciated. Payment after that was less than agreed and was justified as the "current situation" that exists in Europe at the time, in no way -not even as an excuse- there was any notion about my work being not acceptable or less than requested in any way. Client then asks for everything from code, without payment. In no project and no country that is correct.
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
A few messages above you addressed yourself as a project manager.
Most senior level engineers/developers play multiple roles.
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
Client then asks for everything from code, without payment. In no project and no country that is correct.
That would be an issue, I agree.
-
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
Let's not start trolling with each other and continue our conversation with examples and point of views.
You asked for our point of view... I would hardly call it trolling to express it.
Expressing that software and code should be free is not trolling? I should not even respond to that. And will not to any more that are useless to the thread started.
-
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
A few messages above you addressed yourself as a project manager.
Most senior level engineers/developers play multiple roles.
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
Client then asks for everything from code, without payment. In no project and no country that is correct.
That would be an issue, I agree.
Then you know how things are with outsourcing projects and their source code. Very different. "That would be an issue, I agree." That is our issue in the first place...
-
Expressing that software and code should be free is not trolling? I should not even respond to that. And will not to any more that are useless to the thread started.
Antoniades Nektarios wrote:
Expressing that software and code should be free is not trolling?
If that's how he feels.. then why would that be trolling? You must not be a Linux user.
-
Let's say you are working as a freelancer and along with the executables you hand out, in the end of your cooperation the source is asked by the client. Within the source though lie some dlls of your personal framework and the client insists on you giving it also. My response was to pay extra for all, about the 2/5s of the overall price, as most companies selling components do to hand out the source code. In any way I would not hand out the source to my framework, rather rewrite using only necessary classes and methods. What's your opinion?
In any company I have ever been, if a contractor did a great job but based it upon their own .DLL and refused to give us the source (or worse, tried to charge more money for it when the project was done), the company would refuse to pay the contractor and go out of their way to damage the contractor's reputation (or worse). For all the company knows, you deliberately put some of the work you did for them in your .DLL, and now you are trying to "hold code they paid for hostage". Even if the company trusted you and used your .DLL, that is part of the company's product which they cannot debug. If you are not a vendor of 3rd party components and not selling a complete binaries-only software product, I do not think you can compare yourself to Microsoft or other software vendor. Companies which sell components or turnkey software products have multiple programmers, testing specialists, support staff, a hotline, etc. What happens if you get hit by a truck tomorrow? The company is stuck with a mystery .DLL and a prayer that it will work forever. Yes, the company was foolish for not having you sign a document saying they owned all source code, but as a freelancer, you rely upon a good reputation and the company can seriously damage it with little effort. If I were you, I would: 1. Apologize profusely for the way you have been acting, say you are under stress, have problems at home, whatever it takes. People are used to programmers being...different, they may be understanding. 2. Do whatever it takes to make the customer happy. Do not demand more money. Perhaps make a version of your DLL which only has the parts they need with the source. If you make them happy enough, perhaps they will offer more money or future work, but you will not know if you slam the door on your customer. I am sorry. This may cost you time, but you learned to disclose your plans about using your .DLL earlier. I am sure many customers would be OK with it (especially if it saves them money), as long as you give them a choice. For what it is worth, that's my opinion.