What is the basis of tolerance?
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Nice article. You've always got really good links :-)
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Nice article. You've always got really good links :-)
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: You've always got really good links Google deserves the credit... I was actually looking for "meme" with the intent of diverging into a different topic when I stumbled across that...It was too good to pass up.:)
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The basis of tolerance is being willing to let other people be wrong. Interesting. From that perspective, I can still maintain my own views and coexist at the same time with another person's. The issue of right vs. wrong doesn't need to be resolved. The problem I get into though is when being tolerant means that I am in some way giving something up--a degree of freedom, let say, or some control over a situation. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: The issue of right vs. wrong doesn't need to be resolved. Yes, that is exactly the point. If one of us folds and we end up agreeing on a point, there is nothing to tolerate. Tolerance means that even though we disagree on this or that, we're happy co-exist. As an example, tolerating homosexuality in society does not make you gay. it means you accept that other people have the right to be. Of course, that is not a conscious choice, so it's not a great example in a lot of ways. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
The basis of tolerance is being willing to let other people be wrong. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Very well said. "I will find a new sig someday."
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Marc Clifton wrote: Is it religion? Is it behavioral? Is there a difference in tolerance required of the individual vs. the society? religion is fundamentally intolerant. Marc Clifton wrote: What are the pros and cons of tolerance? pros: the ablility and opportunity to enjoy things that have a few otherwise "intolerable" attributes. Without tolerance you would never get past the "intolerable" and see the admirable or interesting. cons: You must be willing to have things that you don't like be a part of your universe. Marc Clifton wrote: What if being tolerant is in conflict with our nature? being tolerant is likely not a part of our nature: it is a bit "counter survival" behavior.
OldRob wrote: religion is fundamentally intolerant. I do disagree with this. I would agree religious beliefs are intolerant. That says nothing that those who believe differently cannot tolerate and peacefully coexist with each other. Superiority does not get into the picture other than from individuals arrogance. Most religions (IMO) teach they must share their faiths not dictate obedience. "I will find a new sig someday."
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Hi Marc :-) Marc Clifton wrote: for those that have been tracking my posts recently, I'm obviously near the "intolerant" extreme. It's not necessarily a question of tolerance in this particular case. Perhaps just patience. When you've seen 50 crappy articles come in in a row, the 51'st might just tip you over the edge. Marc Clifton wrote: Is there a difference in tolerance required of the individual vs. the society? Society is the individual. Society is composed of individuals and so what kind of society we have is determined solely by what we do as individuals. You complained in a previous post that society is too tolerant, but I think that this is using the word incorrectly. Tolerance doesn't mean letting people walk all over you or letting people do whatever the hell they want. It means accepting that there will be differences and working together to overcome any problems that may arise because of that. I see it as a question of inner peace. If someone is running around screaming and shouting about everything that's wrong in the world, that suggests to me that there's a lot of turmoil within. If they took the time to stop, calm down and step back to look at the situation, they might be able to see a better solution or approach. People make mistakes, some people are not very good at what they do and some people are assholes. It's never going to change so there's nothing to be gained by getting all het up about it. Marc Clifton wrote: What if being tolerant is in conflict with our nature? That's something between you and yourself. It kinda bugs me when people say "oh it's not my fault, it's in my nature." You can choose your nature and what kind of person you want to be.
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: Society is the individual. i had a sociology professor who always said that society is nothing more than "the old woman on the hill", the one who shakes her finger at you and tries to keep you from doing things that she thinks are wrong; even if those things are merely unusual to her and not at all wrong. in other words - society is what keeps us in line, like it or not. Taka Muraoka wrote: If someone is running around screaming and shouting about everything that's wrong in the world, that suggests to me that there's a lot of turmoil within or that you're not seeing what's really wrong with the world. (the generic "you", i guess - nothing personal) Taka Muraoka wrote: You can choose your nature and what kind of person you want to be. oooh.. my favorite. i disagree 100%. IMO, this is equivalent to saying a cloud can choose its own shape. -c
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Society is the individual. i had a sociology professor who always said that society is nothing more than "the old woman on the hill", the one who shakes her finger at you and tries to keep you from doing things that she thinks are wrong; even if those things are merely unusual to her and not at all wrong. in other words - society is what keeps us in line, like it or not. Taka Muraoka wrote: If someone is running around screaming and shouting about everything that's wrong in the world, that suggests to me that there's a lot of turmoil within or that you're not seeing what's really wrong with the world. (the generic "you", i guess - nothing personal) Taka Muraoka wrote: You can choose your nature and what kind of person you want to be. oooh.. my favorite. i disagree 100%. IMO, this is equivalent to saying a cloud can choose its own shape. -c
Chris Losinger wrote: society is what keeps us in line, like it or not. This might apply if we were talking about societal mores and attitudes but what a society *is* is much more than what we think is right or wrong. Chris Losinger wrote: or that you're not seeing what's really wrong with the world. Doesn't matter really how you see the world or whether your viewpoint is right or wrong, whatever that might be. I'm talking about how you *respond* to what you see. Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, this is equivalent to saying a cloud can choose its own shape. Difference between you and a cloud: free will.
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Chris Losinger wrote: society is what keeps us in line, like it or not. This might apply if we were talking about societal mores and attitudes but what a society *is* is much more than what we think is right or wrong. Chris Losinger wrote: or that you're not seeing what's really wrong with the world. Doesn't matter really how you see the world or whether your viewpoint is right or wrong, whatever that might be. I'm talking about how you *respond* to what you see. Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, this is equivalent to saying a cloud can choose its own shape. Difference between you and a cloud: free will.
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: Difference between you and a cloud: free will free will is simply the illusion caused by the fact that we can't, in real-time, evaluate our own decision-making process. trying to put an extra/meta-physical spin on something we simply don't understand is bad science. notice how the snow knows only to fall when it's cold enough out that it won't melt. snow is smart. -c
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Difference between you and a cloud: free will free will is simply the illusion caused by the fact that we can't, in real-time, evaluate our own decision-making process. trying to put an extra/meta-physical spin on something we simply don't understand is bad science. notice how the snow knows only to fall when it's cold enough out that it won't melt. snow is smart. -c
Huh?!?! Did you forget a smiley or something? Chris Losinger wrote: notice how the snow knows only to fall when it's cold enough out that it won't melt. snow is smart. And this is *good* science? How about snow falls *because* it is cold enough for it not to melt. Chris Losinger wrote: free will is simply the illusion caused by the fact that we can't, in real-time, evaluate our own decision-making process. At the very lowest level, one might argue that this makes sense - observer interfering with what he's observing and all that. But in practical terms, of course we can evaluate our own behaviour. True, most people don't most of the time, but they could and should. Have you never stopped yourself from doing something because you knew it was wrong? Or because it would hurt someone? Or because you had second thoughts? Or are you a slave to your nature, with no control over who you are and what you do?
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Huh?!?! Did you forget a smiley or something? Chris Losinger wrote: notice how the snow knows only to fall when it's cold enough out that it won't melt. snow is smart. And this is *good* science? How about snow falls *because* it is cold enough for it not to melt. Chris Losinger wrote: free will is simply the illusion caused by the fact that we can't, in real-time, evaluate our own decision-making process. At the very lowest level, one might argue that this makes sense - observer interfering with what he's observing and all that. But in practical terms, of course we can evaluate our own behaviour. True, most people don't most of the time, but they could and should. Have you never stopped yourself from doing something because you knew it was wrong? Or because it would hurt someone? Or because you had second thoughts? Or are you a slave to your nature, with no control over who you are and what you do?
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: Did you forget a smiley or something? i'll let you puzzle over that one yourself. Taka Muraoka wrote: At the very lowest level, one might argue that this makes sense and that's exactly what i'm talking about. you can pretend you are endowed with some extra/meta-physical quality that allows you to change your self, but you're not. you are what you are. i can be a kinder version of "me" or i can be a lazier version of "me", but i can't be anything other than a version of me. Taka Muraoka wrote: But in practical terms, of course we can evaluate our own behaviour only on a superficial level. this evaluation only occurs within the mental framework that we already individually posess. i can look at something i've done and evaluate the act and the consequences; but, none of my conclusions are going to be conclusions that i am not already capable of reaching. my nature is fixed by the fact that i am not possessed by a separate sentient being. all of me is already all of me. free will is simply the name we give our inability to see and understand the totality of the processes by which we carry out the acts that make up our lives. i choose to eat. no i don't. my body/brain is wired so that when stimulii A, B and C fire, i put a Pop-Tart in my mouth. i chose the Pop-Tart. no, i dind't. stimulii D, E and F fired and "Pop-Tart" is what my body picked up. for you, D, E and F might cause your body to pick up a Cinn-A-Bon, but no magical metaphysical fre-will ghost made you do it. Taka Muraoka wrote: Or because you had second thoughts? Or are you a slave to your nature, with no control over who you are and what you do? i believe this is true. but, i think you're using 'nature' in the primitive, animal meaning. i take it to mean "all of me". of course, a deterministic world is pretty dull. :) -c
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OK, I'm going sort of nutso. I think it's mid-life crisis. I can't seem to find a middle ground that I'm happy with--I seem to vacillate from one extreme to the other, and for those that have been tracking my posts recently, I'm obviously near the "intolerant" extreme. Help! Is it religion? Is it behavioral? Is there a difference in tolerance required of the individual vs. the society? Are we too tolerant, or not tolerant enough? What are the pros and cons of tolerance? What if being tolerant is in conflict with our nature? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: What are the pros and cons of tolerance? pros: you get to exist with other people cons: people assume you have no moral backbone because you won't hate the same things they do. -c
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Marc Clifton wrote: I think any action in which you look at an issue from "the other's" perspective requires a sacrifice of the "self". This is because you see everything from the point of view of "me" and "everything else".
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Mornin'! I've got 30 minutes before I have to wake Ian up and take him to school! This is because you see everything from the point of view of "me" and "everything else". Umm, is there a different point of view, other than "I" and "not I"? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Marc Clifton wrote: What are the pros and cons of tolerance? pros: you get to exist with other people cons: people assume you have no moral backbone because you won't hate the same things they do. -c
:laugh: That about sums it up! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
This passive-aggressive stance of tolerance stems from an unwillingness to take a stand. Wow. That was really a very interesting article. I'm going to explore that site some more. How did you happen upon it? Thanks for the link! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Marc Clifton wrote: I don't like myself when I'm not tolerant, and I increasingly can't stand other people when I am So the question is not really one of whether or not you are tolerant of others but whether you are happy with who you are and how you behave. Marc Clifton wrote: Picard said those exact words (or damn close) in Nemesis! :rolleyes: So just call me Jean Luc... Marc Clifton wrote: "emergent behavior" which is a behavior of the group that manifests itself, that is not "programmed" in to the individual I don't think this is anything new. A large group of people will always tend to certain behaviours simply because most people follow what others are doing so once something starts to become popular, everyone else just joins in. Marc Clifton wrote: I think we've all dealt with a person or two who can't even "come to the table" because they honestly don't see that they are causing an "issue" for others. Of course, but as long as it doesn't affect me, then they can do whatever they please. But if it does, then I will take steps. That's what I mean about tolerance not meaning letting people walk over you. Marc Clifton wrote: It seems to me that any degree of tolerance involves a "giving up" of personal freedom, however small. Maybe not in all instances, but in some. Only if you feel that you have a right to do whatever you damn well please. But tolerance implies accepting that other people are different and everyone has to make accomodations to live together. Marc Clifton wrote: I'll say one thing though--this sure beats paying $85/hr at the shrink! Feel free to send a cheque :-)
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: I don't think this is anything new. A large group of people will always tend to certain behaviours simply because most people follow what others are doing so once something starts to become popular, everyone else just joins in. True. Crowd mentality and dynamics is quite fascinating. Lord of the Flies springs to mind as a very scary allegory of basic human nature, too. Taka Muraoka wrote: Of course, but as long as it doesn't affect me, then they can do whatever they please. But if it does, then I will take steps. That's what I mean about tolerance not meaning letting people walk over you. I have a relative who is very intolerant of individuals' sexuality. I find it difficult to tolerate her intolerance.:confused: Well, Actually I hadn't used to tolerate her view at all until I got kicked under the table by my darling husband last time I tried to counter her bigotry. (Ok, I confess, it is my mother-in-law, so any bias here is acknowledged). "Tolerance" is a cited generally as an admirable quality, but some things, surely shouldn't be tolerated. I guess that what society deems as worthy of being tolerated varies as widely as our cultures do. Debbie
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OK, I'm going sort of nutso. I think it's mid-life crisis. I can't seem to find a middle ground that I'm happy with--I seem to vacillate from one extreme to the other, and for those that have been tracking my posts recently, I'm obviously near the "intolerant" extreme. Help! Is it religion? Is it behavioral? Is there a difference in tolerance required of the individual vs. the society? Are we too tolerant, or not tolerant enough? What are the pros and cons of tolerance? What if being tolerant is in conflict with our nature? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaBasis of tolerance? How about respect (for ourselves as well as others) ? The tigress is here :D
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Basis of tolerance? How about respect (for ourselves as well as others) ? The tigress is here :D
Trollslayer wrote: How about respect (for ourselves as well as others) ? Interesting. I feel Respect has to be earned, as a rule, but I would generally respect the rights of an individual to lead the life they wished. This isn't without its own issues, of course. The rights of an individual don't always coexist easily with the rights of others. Debbie
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This passive-aggressive stance of tolerance stems from an unwillingness to take a stand. Wow. That was really a very interesting article. I'm going to explore that site some more. How did you happen upon it? Thanks for the link! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaSomething in the earlier part of this thread reminded me of something I had read long ago about memetics and "viral ideas". I Googled for "meme" and stumbled across that. It was a good article... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell