A poll
-
Because in the US, or more properly North America, Liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism, whereas in most of the rest of the (Western) world it refers to what we here in the US would call libertarianism. Additionally, the meaning of "conservatism" in the US has little in common with the way the word is used elsewhere. "What Americans now call conservatism much of the world calls liberalism or neoliberalism." [Leo P. Ribuffo, "20 Suggestions for Studying the Right now that Studying the Right is Trendy," Historically Speaking Jan 2011 v.12#1 pp 2–6, quote on p. 6] So, as you can see, the rest of the world sees these words very differently, even of opposite definitions. I'm not saying there's isn't some overlap, or that it's wrong or "bad". It's just a curiosity and something of which to be aware when conversing with people from Europe. In talking with my wife (who is from Germany), she indicates that the "Liberal Party" in Germany has much more in common with conservatives here in the US and the "Conservatives" in Germany would be called "Liberals" here. Just a case in point. She's lived here for 20+ years so is very familiar with both political systems. The other interesting thing to note is that there's actually a lot of overlap (in my view) between liberals and conservatives and it has to do with the word liberty. Both groups want it for themselves and others.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunWhat you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
-
What you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
I understand what you are saying and even agree with most of it. But, again you are applying a uniquely American point-of-view, which only makes my case. In any case, I'm making no judgement calls here, just trying to point out the differing views of what liberal and conservative means in other cultures.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
What you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Let me say it a different way. The government systems of most of Europe are socialist, even communist or collectivist in nature, while the US gov't system is quite the opposite, being mainly capitalist and individualist in nature. So someone who calls themselves "conservative" in Europe is more aligned with someone who calls themselves "liberal" in the US. While a European "liberal" is more akin to a US "conservative". Yes, the basic definition of a conservative is someone who attempts to essentially maintain the status quo or restore some form of prior social structure. While a liberal is open to change or even wants what they consider to be something radically different than the current situation. However, what if the societies, political structures and communities in which individuals live are quite different? Then a conservative in one place may actually be more congruent with the principles of a liberal in another, and vice-versa. It is in this way that I mean they have opposite meanings in Europe and the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
I understand what you are saying and even agree with most of it. But, again you are applying a uniquely American point-of-view, which only makes my case. In any case, I'm making no judgement calls here, just trying to point out the differing views of what liberal and conservative means in other cultures.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunI do not understand how a word definition is an "American point-of-view". Honestly I think the poll is silly. Barely any of the questions are really "Conservative" or "Liberal" based. With that said, they are Republican and Democratic based... Somewhat. AND Republicans tend to be conservative (or atleast claim to be) and Democrats tend to be liberal (again they atleast claim to be)... But that does not mean such topics that they focus on are liberal or conservative topics. For example lets take 2 hot political issues which people are misled by (and were used in the poll, one of which I would put money on was used incorrectly) 1.) Gay marraige. Since it is for the most part illegal across the country, the idea of it being legal is a liberal idea. This matches most beliefs of what it is to be liberal. 2.) Abortion. Since it is for the most part legal across the board, the idea of making it illegal is actual NOT a conservative idea. The only way one can claim it is conservative is religous based, that their religon believes it has always been wrong so it was never accepted. However that is a misconception. Although their religon never accepted it our society as a whole never outright rejected it (it is and has been legal). Therefore, attempting to put abortion laws in place is actually a liberal idea. In other cultures (and even here in the US), the media can word play till the end of time. However, they can not change the true definition of its meaning. There are most definately good liberal ideas and good conservative ideas. And bad of both. If one is a follower of more liberal ideas, they can be labelled a liberal and the same is true for a conservative. However this does not change the universal meaning. It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US. The reason being is that we have a different society and laws. If a person in the US wants US laws more like Europe laws they are by definition a liberal (as they want change) and vise versa. If someone in the US wants things the way they are, they are a conservative. Your last line is dead on though...
ahmed zahmed wrote:
differing views of what liberal and conservative
its about the view of what is conservative, but only because of the current state. So long story short yes the views of the conservative people can be opposite but not what is deemed to be conservative.
-
I do not understand how a word definition is an "American point-of-view". Honestly I think the poll is silly. Barely any of the questions are really "Conservative" or "Liberal" based. With that said, they are Republican and Democratic based... Somewhat. AND Republicans tend to be conservative (or atleast claim to be) and Democrats tend to be liberal (again they atleast claim to be)... But that does not mean such topics that they focus on are liberal or conservative topics. For example lets take 2 hot political issues which people are misled by (and were used in the poll, one of which I would put money on was used incorrectly) 1.) Gay marraige. Since it is for the most part illegal across the country, the idea of it being legal is a liberal idea. This matches most beliefs of what it is to be liberal. 2.) Abortion. Since it is for the most part legal across the board, the idea of making it illegal is actual NOT a conservative idea. The only way one can claim it is conservative is religous based, that their religon believes it has always been wrong so it was never accepted. However that is a misconception. Although their religon never accepted it our society as a whole never outright rejected it (it is and has been legal). Therefore, attempting to put abortion laws in place is actually a liberal idea. In other cultures (and even here in the US), the media can word play till the end of time. However, they can not change the true definition of its meaning. There are most definately good liberal ideas and good conservative ideas. And bad of both. If one is a follower of more liberal ideas, they can be labelled a liberal and the same is true for a conservative. However this does not change the universal meaning. It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US. The reason being is that we have a different society and laws. If a person in the US wants US laws more like Europe laws they are by definition a liberal (as they want change) and vise versa. If someone in the US wants things the way they are, they are a conservative. Your last line is dead on though...
ahmed zahmed wrote:
differing views of what liberal and conservative
its about the view of what is conservative, but only because of the current state. So long story short yes the views of the conservative people can be opposite but not what is deemed to be conservative.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US.
This is essentially what I mean. I'm sorry for confusing meaning of the word with the beliefs of the group. In two different locales, especially international locales, the beliefs/principles can be quite different.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Let me say it a different way. The government systems of most of Europe are socialist, even communist or collectivist in nature, while the US gov't system is quite the opposite, being mainly capitalist and individualist in nature. So someone who calls themselves "conservative" in Europe is more aligned with someone who calls themselves "liberal" in the US. While a European "liberal" is more akin to a US "conservative". Yes, the basic definition of a conservative is someone who attempts to essentially maintain the status quo or restore some form of prior social structure. While a liberal is open to change or even wants what they consider to be something radically different than the current situation. However, what if the societies, political structures and communities in which individuals live are quite different? Then a conservative in one place may actually be more congruent with the principles of a liberal in another, and vice-versa. It is in this way that I mean they have opposite meanings in Europe and the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
How Liberal Or Conservative Are You?[^] I wish the "poll" gave more choices on the questions, because I think peoples' positions are more varied than a binary response. Mine certainly are. But it was interesting anyway. My results:
Social Issues: ......... 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal
Personal Responsibility: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal
Fiscal Issues: ......... 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal
Ethics: ................ 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal
Defense and Crime: ..... 75% Conservative, 25% LiberalIf your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunThis poll is among the worst I have seen for this sort of thing. Number 7 for instance. I don't carry personally. I could, but A) I don't think carrying one is dangerous and sketchy and B) is not taking responsability for your own defense. Taking responsibility for your own defense is using your brain and not putting yourself in those situations first, second attempting to get out if you can, and third using force, but only lethal if you have to. Number 16 for another example I am pro-choice. BUT! I am anti-abortion. You cannot sum up abortion in a yes/no question. I think they should be safe, legal, and rarely used. Comprehensive sex ed, easily available contraceptives, and a host of other things cost a little more up front, but pay off in spades later on. Which is more expensive, $300 a year to put someone on the pill or paying to have them on welfare, WIC, and everything else the kid will need for 18 years? Blah, I won't even post my answers because this thing is so out of touch. Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. That is my view at least.
-
This poll is among the worst I have seen for this sort of thing. Number 7 for instance. I don't carry personally. I could, but A) I don't think carrying one is dangerous and sketchy and B) is not taking responsability for your own defense. Taking responsibility for your own defense is using your brain and not putting yourself in those situations first, second attempting to get out if you can, and third using force, but only lethal if you have to. Number 16 for another example I am pro-choice. BUT! I am anti-abortion. You cannot sum up abortion in a yes/no question. I think they should be safe, legal, and rarely used. Comprehensive sex ed, easily available contraceptives, and a host of other things cost a little more up front, but pay off in spades later on. Which is more expensive, $300 a year to put someone on the pill or paying to have them on welfare, WIC, and everything else the kid will need for 18 years? Blah, I won't even post my answers because this thing is so out of touch. Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. That is my view at least.
Yeah, I'm I had similar complaints about the poll. Can't really argue with your other points. For myself, I'd say I'm fiscally and politically conservative, and socially moderate.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Yeah, I'm I had similar complaints about the poll. Can't really argue with your other points. For myself, I'd say I'm fiscally and politically conservative, and socially moderate.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunLike you mentioned in your opening post, a binary answer to these complex questions is just useless. Even having four answers, while an improvement, would still be inadequite. Six to eight plus more questions to truely determine someone's political views.
-
How Liberal Or Conservative Are You?[^] I wish the "poll" gave more choices on the questions, because I think peoples' positions are more varied than a binary response. Mine certainly are. But it was interesting anyway. My results:
Social Issues: ......... 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal
Personal Responsibility: 75% Conservative, 25% Liberal
Fiscal Issues: ......... 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal
Ethics: ................ 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal
Defense and Crime: ..... 75% Conservative, 25% LiberalIf your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun55% Conservative, 45% Liberal Social Issues: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal Personal Responsibility: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal Fiscal Issues: 100% Conservative, 0% Liberal Ethics: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal Defense and Crime: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal Did not like some choices, but guessed which was closest. Actually I would say I am a open minded conservative. :)