Would you employ an old coder ?
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I think age and code mix. I always defer to the old guy in our organization when I have a problem, its amazing to me how quickly he can summarize my problem and guide me to a solution. I think the real problem isn't with old programmers, it is with young energetic managers with a limited view of the world. An old coder is like an old manager: cautious and wise. I think you are too old to program past the age of seventeen. Once the excitement of implementing rot13 algorithm (or any other cs staple) looses its appeal you've gotten to old....... Ritch:cool:
agreed. Enthusiastic coding should not be mistaken for good coding. I haven't done a whole lot of research on this, but I would think that an older coders code would be better commented, have less bugs, be more portable, and anything else young programmers tend to overlook in their excitement.
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
I would say one of the largest differences between young programmers and old, would not necessarily be in the coding but the planning/design. With all of their excitement and enthusiasm, the younger programmer tends to start coding right away (ie. within seconds of hearing the task). Although this excitement is nice to see, it unfortunately results in code that needs to be re-written multiple times. As time moves on and the energy dissipates, the more experienced developer does not want to have to write that same piece of code over and over (and over). Instead more planning is generally done up front to organize the task and to try and get it right the first time. Remember what I have mentioned above is just a generalization, and does not apply to everyone. I have had developers who have been programming for 12+ years who still do not believe in properly approaching a task and end up rewriting it several times, resulting in code that is a hack on top of a hack. I have also had/have (these are good guys to keep!) new developers who realize the importance of planning and think about the problem, ask the proper questions, and organize it before coding. Also I think that the number of years in programming has less to do with it than the number of year of life experience.
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
After reading the numerous replys to this thread, I'm pleased to learn that even this tiny cross-section of programmers thinks enought of experience that they are willing to listen to those who may be more experienced, if not somewhat jaded. ;-) I'm 46 and I've been programming since the early days of the SOL (remember that?), TRS80, AppleII, Commodore64, etc. That doesn't make me a good programmer, but in dealing with many platforms, in several different languages (6800, 6502, 8080, Z80, x86 assembly, interpreted Basic, Pascal, C, Visual Basic) I've come to respect the underlaying methodologies of programming. I've seen (and continue to see) eager programmers writing eager code within their abilities, most reaching for the newer technologies. However, without a firm basis in fundamental software design and, dare I say documentation, chances are that he/she will not be writing robust, scalable and maintainable code. Don't get me wrong now. My coding experiences have been entirely 'by fire'. By this I mean that I don't have any formal education in programming or computers. I've simply 'picked-it-up' as I went along. Those of you with the formal training may be much better off, but I maintain that until we have seen a good deal of 'other-people's-code' and written enough work-arounds, we will not have a good appreciation for 'maintainable code'. Best regards, Doug
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
Whenever you stop questioning, you are too grown up to code! Being qualified as an experienced programmer shouldn't stop you questioning. OTOH, elder programmers, IMSHO, afraid to fail so they think about what they are going to do over and over again, before starting to code a line! But young ones don't afraid, because if they fail nobody will tell them this or that! Conclusion: Experienced programmers are great if and only if they take themselves lightly! Don't forget what G.K. Chesterton said: "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly." Mehdi Mousavi, C++ Programmer
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
Well, as one of those old(er) coders, I'd have to say that I'm also glad to see that experience and maturity in methodology seem to still count for something. Like another commenter, I'm also 46, and I've been writing code since I was 15. I've been getting paid to do it since I was 19. I had some formal education in the field, starting in high school when I took a series of non-credit courses at the local university. I then did half of a computer science degree before the lure of steady income outweighed the prospect of huge student loans to finish off my degree. In my career, which is far from over, I've had most of the job titles, but have always gravitated back to development, because it's my first and last love. While I wouldn't want to go back to the punched card days, there were skills from that time that still apply, and I find that many of today's programmers lack those skills. For example, there is still no substitute for good design, and for solid logic. As well, there is no substitute for proper debugging techniques, including "playing computer" -- you can't always rely on just-in-time debugging if you want to be successful in this game -- you've got to be able to understand the program, and completely comprehend what the code is attempting to do. And most importantly -- put comments in the code you are writing. Never assume that you will always remember everything about the program, and that you will always be the maintainer. Always code as if you will be hit by a bus on the way home from work, and assume that you are writing and documenting for someone else. Cheers Norm
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
I'm a weird hybrid because while I'm pretty old by programmer standards (48), I've only been coding professionally for 6 years. I was in the military for 20 years as a navigator, and while I built a computer in 1974 and had done a lot of personal coding, I had done only a little professional coding prior to 1994. Since then I've worked in 3 startup companies, proving that there are managers willing to hire old guys. In all cases I've been way older than my immediate supervisor, and at least a little older than my CEO. I've always kept up with technology and I don't see that changing. I don't see myself hitting any kind of wall anytime soon. Some managers have told me that my main advantage is that I think I'm a bit more thick-skinned and dispassionate than some of my younger colleagues. The main problem I have in the startup world is that I have a family and am not willing to live at the company. I don't expect a 40 hour week, but I draw the line at 60. I know this is a problem for some managers, but oh well.
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
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After reading the numerous replys to this thread, I'm pleased to learn that even this tiny cross-section of programmers thinks enought of experience that they are willing to listen to those who may be more experienced, if not somewhat jaded. ;-) I'm 46 and I've been programming since the early days of the SOL (remember that?), TRS80, AppleII, Commodore64, etc. That doesn't make me a good programmer, but in dealing with many platforms, in several different languages (6800, 6502, 8080, Z80, x86 assembly, interpreted Basic, Pascal, C, Visual Basic) I've come to respect the underlaying methodologies of programming. I've seen (and continue to see) eager programmers writing eager code within their abilities, most reaching for the newer technologies. However, without a firm basis in fundamental software design and, dare I say documentation, chances are that he/she will not be writing robust, scalable and maintainable code. Don't get me wrong now. My coding experiences have been entirely 'by fire'. By this I mean that I don't have any formal education in programming or computers. I've simply 'picked-it-up' as I went along. Those of you with the formal training may be much better off, but I maintain that until we have seen a good deal of 'other-people's-code' and written enough work-arounds, we will not have a good appreciation for 'maintainable code'. Best regards, Doug
Although not as old as you, I have 14 years' of "learning by fire". I have found my way through zillions of environements, programming languages and technologies in these years with little or no help. I still love the job (if not more so) and I don't think I can do anything else as good as I can code. I do believe the value an older programmer can bring to the job is tough to match, particularly if s/he has not been a COBOL programmer for 20 years. Newer technologies are but names and more names... the skills required for programming solutions do not change. :) :) :) Warm Regards, K.
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Although not as old as you, I have 14 years' of "learning by fire". I have found my way through zillions of environements, programming languages and technologies in these years with little or no help. I still love the job (if not more so) and I don't think I can do anything else as good as I can code. I do believe the value an older programmer can bring to the job is tough to match, particularly if s/he has not been a COBOL programmer for 20 years. Newer technologies are but names and more names... the skills required for programming solutions do not change. :) :) :) Warm Regards, K.
I don't think age is the issue per se. Obviously, an older developer (hey, i'm 34 and been doing this for 22 years.. eek, almost 2/3rds my life) that stays current on technology and develops solid development skills has a lot of value in todays rapid paced development. However, I can also see from a corporate perspective how older coders are not as desireable. * They'll tell you when you're full of shit. This is the worst. A young manager with a bug up his ass about something stupid can get young inexperienced developers to do what he says unquestioningly. A mature developer will know what's going on and expose the manager for the incompetant he is. * They want too much money and won't work enough. These young kids will work 60-80 hours weeks for peanuts and the promise of stock options down the road. Older developers have lives, and while they have 3-4x the productivity of a young developer, they only work half as much. So clearly, they're slackers. * They will know when a project is doomed, thereby possibly avoiding the fate. This is bad because doomed projects mean promotions for management involved. Rather than put the person to work on another doomed project, they'd rather promote them to a job where they can do less damage. Seriously though, there are lots of older developers that are just coasting on their way to retirement. A young, inexperienced developer has an excuse for being unproductive, and older experienced one doesn't. Also, you can't have too many experienced people on a project, or else nothing ever gets done because each "expert" thinks he knows what to do better than the other. That's why you need project and team leaders to be experienced, but many of your developers should be green or a few years experienced. You need a good Apprentice/Journeyman/Master situation.
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Well, as one of those old(er) coders, I'd have to say that I'm also glad to see that experience and maturity in methodology seem to still count for something. Like another commenter, I'm also 46, and I've been writing code since I was 15. I've been getting paid to do it since I was 19. I had some formal education in the field, starting in high school when I took a series of non-credit courses at the local university. I then did half of a computer science degree before the lure of steady income outweighed the prospect of huge student loans to finish off my degree. In my career, which is far from over, I've had most of the job titles, but have always gravitated back to development, because it's my first and last love. While I wouldn't want to go back to the punched card days, there were skills from that time that still apply, and I find that many of today's programmers lack those skills. For example, there is still no substitute for good design, and for solid logic. As well, there is no substitute for proper debugging techniques, including "playing computer" -- you can't always rely on just-in-time debugging if you want to be successful in this game -- you've got to be able to understand the program, and completely comprehend what the code is attempting to do. And most importantly -- put comments in the code you are writing. Never assume that you will always remember everything about the program, and that you will always be the maintainer. Always code as if you will be hit by a bus on the way home from work, and assume that you are writing and documenting for someone else. Cheers Norm
I seem to be right in the middle of this age group. At 33 I'm seeing all kinds of programmers. Some of the older guys want to "put everything on paper" while the young guys want to "let the code speak for itself". Some of the older guys want to plan out every step that could possibly happen while the younger guys want to "see what will happen". :eek: Is one right and the other wrong? No! Is using only one wrong? YES!!!! Brad
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Do age and code Mix ? When will you be too grown up to code ? :eek: Regardz Colin Davies
Very interesting Replys , Almost a Concensus feel, Maybe I'll delay my retirement a bit longer now ! Thanx Again Regardz Colin Davies