"Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar" - N&O
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How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not - a "religion buffet" so to speak. And as creatures with a free will, it is certainly within our ability to do so. Of course, even children eventually abandon the desert-only table, memories of past belly-aches teaching the value of the less-appealing meat, potatoes, and greens. I can respect a man whose beliefs differ from my own. I cannot respect a man who will not respect his own beliefs.**
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
**
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
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You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith. I disagree. He is actually saying what lot's of other church leaders and theologians already believe. Most of them just can't be bothered telling the congregations that. It is very difficult also these days to find anyone at the top who believes in the resurrection as well. When Joe Sprague was here in NZ in 1999 I went to one of his combined services out of interest, and it was refreshing to see a Bishop who was honest. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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There was this old man who took his sick daughter to see the doc. The doc took him aside and told him, "Look here sir, but your lil girl is carrying!". The man replied angrily, "You stupid fool, that's not possible. No man has touched my daughter". The doc runs out fast to the window and looks out at the sky. The irritated old man asks him what the hell he is doing. And the doc replies, "The last time this happened, a bright star appeared in the east"
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
ROTFL !!! Excellent. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life No, you cannot. However, the OT was presented as a picture of things to come. Jesus came to fulfill those things, His death replaces the animal sacrifice of the OT, salvation fulfills the type presented by the Sabbath day, etc. Not dropped, made complete. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. Not wanting to contradict you and all, but it was Peter in Acts 10 who discovered that Gentiles could be saved, and told the church in Acts 11. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
The truth is out there[^]... still bored...
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
That is *so* wrong... :laugh:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Shog9 wrote: One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. Not wanting to contradict you and all, but it was Peter in Acts 10 who discovered that Gentiles could be saved, and told the church in Acts 11. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith. I disagree. He is actually saying what lot's of other church leaders and theologians already believe. Most of them just can't be bothered telling the congregations that. It is very difficult also these days to find anyone at the top who believes in the resurrection as well. When Joe Sprague was here in NZ in 1999 I went to one of his combined services out of interest, and it was refreshing to see a Bishop who was honest. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. In fact if people who are to be ordained say they do not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection they are not allowed to be ordained. And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the phyical body? My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? This is where faith comes into the equation. Without faith we are constantly asking questions that are far beyond our comprehension and things that we will never be able to know.
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ROTFL !!! Excellent. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: ROTFL !!! Excellent. Hmmmmm. Hey Dave, you seeing all this??? I think CG's very determined this time not to lose his cool ;-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life No, you cannot. However, the OT was presented as a picture of things to come. Jesus came to fulfill those things, His death replaces the animal sacrifice of the OT, salvation fulfills the type presented by the Sabbath day, etc. Not dropped, made complete. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: His death replaces but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? who wrote the list ? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper ok. what about: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." where does the NT remove this?
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. In fact if people who are to be ordained say they do not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection they are not allowed to be ordained. And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the phyical body? My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? This is where faith comes into the equation. Without faith we are constantly asking questions that are far beyond our comprehension and things that we will never be able to know.
Britt Fisher wrote: Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. Yes he is in good campany for a methodist, as John Wesley was also deemed a heretic by the parochial clergy. Britt Fisher wrote: And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the physical body? No they are not saying that God can't only that God probably didn't in this case. Evidence points to the limited Gospels used by the RC and RC derived religions being chosen for appearing to include similarities with the popular pagan beliefs of the time. Britt Fisher wrote: My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? Since Sprague can have faith without believing in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection does this not show his faith is indeed greater than those that must use belief in the supernatural for proof ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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In reality, Stephen was the first evangelist to the Gentiles and he was the first martyr because of it
Interesting. The very nature of Stephens address makes me think he is talking to Jews. Why do you think otherwise ? ( Not arguing, interested ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Shog9 wrote: sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper ok. what about: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." where does the NT remove this?
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
'What God has made clean, let no man call unclean'. :-) The basic principle is presented in the NT also, that is, that the OT is full of laws which Jesus came to fulfill, sending the Holy Spirit to write the law on the fleshy tables of our hearts. In other words, the OT was a legal document, the NT is about the love of God motivating us to do good, so we do not need lengthy lists of rules. Paul specifically states that if anyone wants to try to keep to any the Law, they must keep it all. He also specifically stated that this was not possible for any man. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: His death replaces but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? who wrote the list ? -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? Somewhere in Romans from memory, or probably Hebrews. Chris Losinger wrote: who wrote the list ? God. :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
'What God has made clean, let no man call unclean'. :-) The basic principle is presented in the NT also, that is, that the OT is full of laws which Jesus came to fulfill, sending the Holy Spirit to write the law on the fleshy tables of our hearts. In other words, the OT was a legal document, the NT is about the love of God motivating us to do good, so we do not need lengthy lists of rules. Paul specifically states that if anyone wants to try to keep to any the Law, they must keep it all. He also specifically stated that this was not possible for any man. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: we do not need lengthy lists of rules so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Christian Graus wrote: we do not need lengthy lists of rules so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? No, you've missed the point. The point is not that the OT became untrue, but that it served it's purpose. It's not that the Law was bad, it's that we could not keep it, and the Bible says the Law was a 'schoolmaster to lead us to Christ'. The Law set the scene, but it was not the end of God's plan. The Bible also says that everything that happened in the OT was for our example, for the benefit of people who are today filled with the Holy Spirit. Chris Losinger wrote: you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? LOL, of course. More Stepanov said so would be analagous. How interested are you in this ? Would you like me to sit down and grab a list of scriptures that explains the situation ? I've paraphrased about 6 already. Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Chris Losinger wrote: so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? No, you've missed the point. The point is not that the OT became untrue, but that it served it's purpose. It's not that the Law was bad, it's that we could not keep it, and the Bible says the Law was a 'schoolmaster to lead us to Christ'. The Law set the scene, but it was not the end of God's plan. The Bible also says that everything that happened in the OT was for our example, for the benefit of people who are today filled with the Holy Spirit. Chris Losinger wrote: you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? LOL, of course. More Stepanov said so would be analagous. How interested are you in this ? Would you like me to sit down and grab a list of scriptures that explains the situation ? I've paraphrased about 6 already. Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. ok. got it. like Win 3.1 -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Shog9 wrote: sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper ok. what about: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." where does the NT remove this?
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: what about: 'Morning, Chris - this might sound like a cop-out, and you can certainly take it that way, but... There is no list. There is example. OT law laid out hundreds of rules on cleanliness, along with procedures for becoming ceremonially clean. These served several purposes: they set the Israelites apart, they were a constant reminder of how utterly impossible it is to be pure in God's eyes, and in many instances, they are beneficial from a public health perspective. Neither Judaism nor Christianity began as works-based religions. The Law was put in place as a mirror, showing us clearly how far short we fall in God's sight. The rituals of sacrificing doves, etc. in restoring ceremonial cleanliness are reminders of our need for redemption. Christ, in his life, pointed out the foolishness of becoming slaves to the Law. He communed with sinners, healed on the Sabbath, ate without properly washing his hands. He put the commandments in perspective, noting: "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." Not that the Law can be ignored because of this; rather, it should be seen for what it is. The Law cannot save, only condemn. But the Christian, living by the grace of God, should keep the law as a sign of love and respect for God, so long as doing so is not seen as a works-based salvation. ...and i'm sure you can think of a few reasons *other* than OT laws to avoid period sex... :rolleyes:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under