Maybe this is not a good idea
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Thankfully most of them don't actively participate in church and/or organized religion.
Are you saying that people who do actively participate in church and/or organized religion are bad? That's a big blanket statement. What problem do you have with people who actively participate?
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Separation of Church and State
This was meant to keep the government from having a State Religion like the Church of England was when they left to form the US. It was never meant to prevent a national prayer day, or the pledge of allegiance in schools, or prevent 10 Commandments statues at courthouses, etc. People are way too sensitive about it. The US was founded by Christian people living Christian principles and if you do not like it there are plenty of other countries to move to. If the US government ever tries to form a State Church then, yes, I will be outraged, but otherwise, it is not hurting anyone.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
It was never meant to prevent a national prayer day, or the pledge of allegiance in schools, or prevent 10 Commandments statues at courthouses, etc.
People are way too sensitive about it. The US was founded by Christian people living Christian principles and if you do not like it there are plenty of other countries to move to.And yet the Constitutional Congress vigorously resisted the motion made by Franklin to impose a daily prayer into the proceedings. And Jefferson specifically referred to a "wall of separation between church and state" which to my way of thinking means that religion is on one side and the state is on the other.
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I used to be a Christian ryan. I was baptized and the whole 9 yards. I have seen and lived both sides of the fence, and I choose the side I am on now. I say self thought, because the Church tells you how to live. In order to be a member of the Church and be in good standing, then you have to live by their rules. Now, if you "choose" to live that way then great, I don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
those principles will ALWAYS be relevant.
And the Constitution is a failed document and needs to be revised in some areas as well as the Bill of Rights. As with all things, change is good and inevitable.
"the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "It is the celestial scrotum of good luck!" - Nagy Vilmos (2011) "But you probably have the smoothest scrotum of any grown man" - Pete O'Hanlon (2012)Slacker007 wrote:
I used to be a Christian ryan. I was baptized and the whole 9 yards. I have seen and lived both sides of the fence, and I choose the side I am on now. I say self thought, because the Church tells you how to live. In order to be a member of the Church and be in good standing, then you have to live by their rules.
To be fair not all religions take that view not even the Christian ones.
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the Church tells you how to live.
But how is that different than anything else? Most people that don't believe in God believe in science and what it tells them. Or, people believe the media and what it tells them. Or, they believe their friends, etc, etc. I know, most of you say "you listen to yourself." But you are influenced by everything around you.
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And the Constitution is a failed document and needs to be revised in some areas as well as the Bill of Rights.
Agree to disagree and I am extremely grateful that you are very wrong. I wish you could understand how critical that document really is. I don't know how old you are but you may yet in your lifetime see what I mean.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Agree to disagree and I am extremely grateful that you are very wrong. I wish you could understand how critical that document really is. I don't know how old you are but you may yet in your lifetime see what I mean.
Errr...you do know that the US specifically allows for the legal possibility to redo the Constitution? Presumably that is allowed because the framers themselves understood that it would not stand in the original form forever.
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ryanb31 wrote:
The point is the US was built on Christian principles and prayer is one of those principles
They used to burn witches as well......
If it moves, compile it
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
I quoted you. I did not change anything. It saws they shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Are you OK with Cinco de Mayo? Are you OK with Black History month? Clearly they are not religions but they do favor certain groups.
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Would you be OK with Satanists doing satanic rituals on this said Holiday?
Sure. Why would I want to take away their rights. As long as it does not hurt anyone else, right?
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Would you be OK with Satanists doing satanic rituals on this said Holiday?
If this country were founded by Satanists and if they created a constitution to protect satanic rights, then I could choose to live somewhere else. The United States of America was founded by Christians trying to escape religions dictatorship and they created a God inspired constitution to help protect everyone's religious rights, not just Christians. If you don't like it, MOVE. We have border control for coming in, not out.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
If this country were founded by Satanists and if they created a constitution to protect satanic rights, then I could choose to live somewhere else
That statement is of course prejudicial. If you are claiming a defense of all religions then it is in fact all religions. The above statement specifically demonstrates that you think that one religion deserves and must get special treatment.
ryanb31 wrote:
The United States of America was founded by Christians trying to escape religions dictatorship and they created a God inspired constitution to help protect everyone's religious rights, not just Christians.
And that of course includes Christians that think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians. There are other countries in the world that favor Christians so the door is open in that direction as well.
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The later means no laws supporting religon in any matter, i.e. no prayer time etc.
See, you are the one changing what it says. It clearly says establishment of religion and you changed it to supporting religion. You must have taken a history class from the same goofball I did in college. He had his own ways of seeing what really happened. What a sad point of view.
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These have nothing to do with peoples "CHOSEN" spiritual beliefs.
Yes, I said that. The point is you are upset about the government having a day of prayer but are not upset about showing favoritism towards other groups. That is hypocritical. If I were like you, I would protest Black History month. Good thing I am not like you, at all. Read your history. When the founding fathers were writing the Bill of Rights they were stuck for several days not getting anywhere. Then, one of them suggested they start with a prayer and after they did that they quickly were able to write them. Yes, there were many reasons the country was founded, but religious freedom for ALL, regardless of religion, was a big part of it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, I said that. The point is you are upset about the government having a day of prayer but are not upset about showing favoritism towards other groups. That is hypocritical. If I were like you, I would protest Black History month. Good thing I am not like you, at all.
Given that the main part of the Constitution specifically addressed slavery you example is hardly apt. Religion only comes up in the Bill of Rights. The only mention of God, religion or anything related to that appears solely in Amendment 1 and it shares that billing with free speech and assembly. As an Amendment is has the same relevance as Amendment 3 which deals with quartering the military in private citizens homes.
ryanb31 wrote:
Read your history. When the founding fathers were writing the Bill of Rights they were stuck for several days not getting anywhere. Then, one of them suggested they start with a prayer and after they did that they quickly were able to write them.
1. Provide a reference. Given that they spent a number of days on a motion by Franklin to include daily prayer and then rejected it at the very least it more than counter balances your example. 2. Even if true that has nothing to do with anything. Or perhaps you think that the NFL should erect churches in the middle of every stadium because teams pray?
ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, there were many reasons the country was founded, but religious freedom for ALL, regardless of religion, was a big part of it.
Yep - all which I am not sure you get. If the government is espousing a religious practice of ANY sort which is not practiced by everyone then it is, by definition, not including "ALL".
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Thankfully most of them don't actively participate in church and/or organized religion.
Are you saying that people who do actively participate in church and/or organized religion are bad? That's a big blanket statement. What problem do you have with people who actively participate?
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Are you saying that people who do actively participate in church and/or organized religion are bad? That's a big blanket statement. What problem do you have with people who actively participate?
Hypocrisy perhaps? After if you are claiming that you are a staunch supporter of a religion which specifically does not allow divorce and yet you are divorced, maybe multiple times, what else would you call it? And this isn't a small percentage either.
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Seventy eight percent or so of U.S. citizens are Christians
Funny, because more than 1 in 4 have a criminal record.......
If it moves, compile it
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ryanb31 wrote:
If this country were founded by Satanists and if they created a constitution to protect satanic rights, then I could choose to live somewhere else
That statement is of course prejudicial. If you are claiming a defense of all religions then it is in fact all religions. The above statement specifically demonstrates that you think that one religion deserves and must get special treatment.
ryanb31 wrote:
The United States of America was founded by Christians trying to escape religions dictatorship and they created a God inspired constitution to help protect everyone's religious rights, not just Christians.
And that of course includes Christians that think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians. There are other countries in the world that favor Christians so the door is open in that direction as well.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, I said that. The point is you are upset about the government having a day of prayer but are not upset about showing favoritism towards other groups. That is hypocritical. If I were like you, I would protest Black History month. Good thing I am not like you, at all.
Given that the main part of the Constitution specifically addressed slavery you example is hardly apt. Religion only comes up in the Bill of Rights. The only mention of God, religion or anything related to that appears solely in Amendment 1 and it shares that billing with free speech and assembly. As an Amendment is has the same relevance as Amendment 3 which deals with quartering the military in private citizens homes.
ryanb31 wrote:
Read your history. When the founding fathers were writing the Bill of Rights they were stuck for several days not getting anywhere. Then, one of them suggested they start with a prayer and after they did that they quickly were able to write them.
1. Provide a reference. Given that they spent a number of days on a motion by Franklin to include daily prayer and then rejected it at the very least it more than counter balances your example. 2. Even if true that has nothing to do with anything. Or perhaps you think that the NFL should erect churches in the middle of every stadium because teams pray?
ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, there were many reasons the country was founded, but religious freedom for ALL, regardless of religion, was a big part of it.
Yep - all which I am not sure you get. If the government is espousing a religious practice of ANY sort which is not practiced by everyone then it is, by definition, not including "ALL".
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not including "ALL".
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc? The government has passed many things that do not include all so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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loctrice wrote:
They used to burn witches as well....
Just as a point of fact that never occurred in the US.
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US must favor Christians
How is prayer favoring Christians?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
How is prayer favoring Christians?
The statements I quoted displayed a specific bias against satanists. Are you suggesting that Congress should start each daily session with a satanic ritual and that is ok with you?
You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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not including "ALL".
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc? The government has passed many things that do not include all so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc?
Because - For the first the US has specifically rejected slavery even thought it was originally recognized. - As for the other two the Constitution says nothing either for nor against those two. Just as it says nothing about "National Public Gardens" day which has been recognized.
ryanb31 wrote:
so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
Because the constitution says they can't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc?
Because - For the first the US has specifically rejected slavery even thought it was originally recognized. - As for the other two the Constitution says nothing either for nor against those two. Just as it says nothing about "National Public Gardens" day which has been recognized.
ryanb31 wrote:
so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
Because the constitution says they can't.
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HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Are you saying that people who do actively participate in church and/or organized religion are bad? That's a big blanket statement. What problem do you have with people who actively participate?
Hypocrisy perhaps? After if you are claiming that you are a staunch supporter of a religion which specifically does not allow divorce and yet you are divorced, maybe multiple times, what else would you call it? And this isn't a small percentage either.
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I have a problem with organized religion in general, yes. So it was a blanket statement, and I do think it is bad. Of coarse there are exceptions, but I find they are rare.
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Of coarse there are exceptions, but I find they are rare.
You must be in the wrong church then. :) That isn't my experience at all. I believe most people are trying hard to do their best but we all make mistakes. When it comes to people who start churches, yes, a lot of them I believe are hypocrites and just in it to get money. Funny how they all skip that part in the Bible that says we should not preach for money.
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You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
You would need to ask the Christians that are sponsoring the national day of prayer why they think that the US must allow it. Or perhaps you think that absolutely no one opposes it? If you understand that there is in fact opposition then how would allowing it not be a favorable position? And I note that you didn't answer my question about the satanic ritual.
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Because the constitution says they can't.
That is your interpretation. And others, I know, but still, your interpretation.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
That is your interpretation. And others, I know, but still, your interpretation.
Certainly isn't my interpretation, from any reasonable standpoint, that the following is true. 1. The Constitution says nothing about St Patrick's day. 2. The Constitution has some very specific language about religion.