Maybe this is not a good idea
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ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, I said that. The point is you are upset about the government having a day of prayer but are not upset about showing favoritism towards other groups. That is hypocritical. If I were like you, I would protest Black History month. Good thing I am not like you, at all.
Given that the main part of the Constitution specifically addressed slavery you example is hardly apt. Religion only comes up in the Bill of Rights. The only mention of God, religion or anything related to that appears solely in Amendment 1 and it shares that billing with free speech and assembly. As an Amendment is has the same relevance as Amendment 3 which deals with quartering the military in private citizens homes.
ryanb31 wrote:
Read your history. When the founding fathers were writing the Bill of Rights they were stuck for several days not getting anywhere. Then, one of them suggested they start with a prayer and after they did that they quickly were able to write them.
1. Provide a reference. Given that they spent a number of days on a motion by Franklin to include daily prayer and then rejected it at the very least it more than counter balances your example. 2. Even if true that has nothing to do with anything. Or perhaps you think that the NFL should erect churches in the middle of every stadium because teams pray?
ryanb31 wrote:
Yes, there were many reasons the country was founded, but religious freedom for ALL, regardless of religion, was a big part of it.
Yep - all which I am not sure you get. If the government is espousing a religious practice of ANY sort which is not practiced by everyone then it is, by definition, not including "ALL".
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not including "ALL".
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc? The government has passed many things that do not include all so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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loctrice wrote:
They used to burn witches as well....
Just as a point of fact that never occurred in the US.
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US must favor Christians
How is prayer favoring Christians?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
How is prayer favoring Christians?
The statements I quoted displayed a specific bias against satanists. Are you suggesting that Congress should start each daily session with a satanic ritual and that is ok with you?
You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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not including "ALL".
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc? The government has passed many things that do not include all so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc?
Because - For the first the US has specifically rejected slavery even thought it was originally recognized. - As for the other two the Constitution says nothing either for nor against those two. Just as it says nothing about "National Public Gardens" day which has been recognized.
ryanb31 wrote:
so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
Because the constitution says they can't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
This is why I asked why are people OK with Black History month or Cinco de Mayo, or St. Patrick's Day, etc?
Because - For the first the US has specifically rejected slavery even thought it was originally recognized. - As for the other two the Constitution says nothing either for nor against those two. Just as it says nothing about "National Public Gardens" day which has been recognized.
ryanb31 wrote:
so why do you care if they include a day of prayer?
Because the constitution says they can't.
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HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Are you saying that people who do actively participate in church and/or organized religion are bad? That's a big blanket statement. What problem do you have with people who actively participate?
Hypocrisy perhaps? After if you are claiming that you are a staunch supporter of a religion which specifically does not allow divorce and yet you are divorced, maybe multiple times, what else would you call it? And this isn't a small percentage either.
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I have a problem with organized religion in general, yes. So it was a blanket statement, and I do think it is bad. Of coarse there are exceptions, but I find they are rare.
If it moves, compile it
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Of coarse there are exceptions, but I find they are rare.
You must be in the wrong church then. :) That isn't my experience at all. I believe most people are trying hard to do their best but we all make mistakes. When it comes to people who start churches, yes, a lot of them I believe are hypocrites and just in it to get money. Funny how they all skip that part in the Bible that says we should not preach for money.
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You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
You would need to ask the Christians that are sponsoring the national day of prayer why they think that the US must allow it. Or perhaps you think that absolutely no one opposes it? If you understand that there is in fact opposition then how would allowing it not be a favorable position? And I note that you didn't answer my question about the satanic ritual.
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Because the constitution says they can't.
That is your interpretation. And others, I know, but still, your interpretation.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
That is your interpretation. And others, I know, but still, your interpretation.
Certainly isn't my interpretation, from any reasonable standpoint, that the following is true. 1. The Constitution says nothing about St Patrick's day. 2. The Constitution has some very specific language about religion.
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ryanb31 wrote:
You made the claim that Christians "think that just because there are religions connotations in the US's early history that the US must favor Christians." So, I asked you "how is prayer favoring Christians?"
You would need to ask the Christians that are sponsoring the national day of prayer why they think that the US must allow it. Or perhaps you think that absolutely no one opposes it? If you understand that there is in fact opposition then how would allowing it not be a favorable position? And I note that you didn't answer my question about the satanic ritual.
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they think that the US must allow it.
I didn't read the article but are you sure they feel that the US must allow it or are you making an assumption? They have every right to want a day of prayer but are you sure they are demanding it?
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Or perhaps you think that absolutely no one opposes it?
Why would anyone think that? There is opposition in all things.
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If you understand that there is in fact opposition then how would allowing it not be a favorable position?
If you are calling that favorable then I go back to my earlier question to you regarding Cinco de Mayo, Black History Month, St. Pats day, etc. People oppose them so why are you OK with favoring certain groups and not others?
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And I note that you didn't answer my question about the satanic ritual.
That was intentional. You had not answered my question about how is it favoring Christians, which you still haven't answered, so I intentionally did not answer. Ask again, and I'll gladly answer.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Are you saying that people who actively participate in church are hypocrites? I can understand some are but I would doubt that most are. I believe most are good people trying to do the best they can. We all make mistakes.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Are you saying that people who actively participate in church are hypocrites? I can understand some are but I would doubt that most are. I believe most are good people trying to do the best they can. We all make mistakes.
An impure thought is a "mistake". Divorce and living together before marriage are not "mistakes". Those are very specific rules in the Catholic religion that a large number of people that call themselves Catholics ignore. And in Catholicism one does not get the choice to ignore the rules. Which means a large percentage are choosing to ignore a basic tenet of the religion. I would suspect that the other major Christian religions also have a significant percentage that ignore rules that if you asked them publicly about that the majority (vast majority) would state a significant tenets of the religion. As an analogy do you think is ok for a banker to steal (actually steal) money from customer accounts but then to publicly state that bankers should not steal? Would you claim that that isn't hypocrisy?
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ryanb31 wrote:
That is your interpretation. And others, I know, but still, your interpretation.
Certainly isn't my interpretation, from any reasonable standpoint, that the following is true. 1. The Constitution says nothing about St Patrick's day. 2. The Constitution has some very specific language about religion.
Think about it. St Patrick's Day. What do you think the St stands for? That is a religious holiday. What about Easter or Christmas? Religious holidays. So, why are you OK with those holidays and not OK with a day of prayer. By the way, since you won't answer it in the other thread, many religions, not just Christians, pray, so this does not favor Christians only.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Of coarse there are exceptions, but I find they are rare.
You must be in the wrong church then. :) That isn't my experience at all. I believe most people are trying hard to do their best but we all make mistakes. When it comes to people who start churches, yes, a lot of them I believe are hypocrites and just in it to get money. Funny how they all skip that part in the Bible that says we should not preach for money.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
I believe most people are trying hard to do their best but we all make mistakes.
Yep. However that statement has nothing to do with church. Nor does it say anything about what a "mistake" is.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Funny how they all skip that part in the Bible that says we should not preach for money.
You are kidding right? I don't know what church you belong to but in the US the vast majority of churches of all kinds expect that participants must contribute financially. And there are all sorts of explicit and subtle ways to insure that participants are made to feel that they should. But perhaps you belong to a church that relies that money must never be discussed and that contributions are only accepted anonymously.
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HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Are you saying that people who actively participate in church are hypocrites? I can understand some are but I would doubt that most are. I believe most are good people trying to do the best they can. We all make mistakes.
An impure thought is a "mistake". Divorce and living together before marriage are not "mistakes". Those are very specific rules in the Catholic religion that a large number of people that call themselves Catholics ignore. And in Catholicism one does not get the choice to ignore the rules. Which means a large percentage are choosing to ignore a basic tenet of the religion. I would suspect that the other major Christian religions also have a significant percentage that ignore rules that if you asked them publicly about that the majority (vast majority) would state a significant tenets of the religion. As an analogy do you think is ok for a banker to steal (actually steal) money from customer accounts but then to publicly state that bankers should not steal? Would you claim that that isn't hypocrisy?
I can't speak for Catholics. Most Catholics I know hardly ever go to church at all, Easter and Christmas mostly. If someone doesn't agree with everything or practice everything their religion preaches I don't think that makes them a bad person.
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As an analogy do you think is ok for a banker to steal (actually steal) money from customer accounts but then to publicly state that bankers should not steal? Would you claim that that isn't hypocrisy?
Sure, that is the definition of hypocrisy.
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they think that the US must allow it.
I didn't read the article but are you sure they feel that the US must allow it or are you making an assumption? They have every right to want a day of prayer but are you sure they are demanding it?
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Or perhaps you think that absolutely no one opposes it?
Why would anyone think that? There is opposition in all things.
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If you understand that there is in fact opposition then how would allowing it not be a favorable position?
If you are calling that favorable then I go back to my earlier question to you regarding Cinco de Mayo, Black History Month, St. Pats day, etc. People oppose them so why are you OK with favoring certain groups and not others?
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And I note that you didn't answer my question about the satanic ritual.
That was intentional. You had not answered my question about how is it favoring Christians, which you still haven't answered, so I intentionally did not answer. Ask again, and I'll gladly answer.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I didn't read the article but are you sure they feel that the US must allow it or are you making an assumption? They have every right to want a day of prayer but are you sure they are demanding it?
Perhaps you are missing the point. The 'day' already exists. And at least one organization exists to actively keep it that way. There is no government need for recognition yet they actively seek it.
ryanb31 wrote:
If you are calling that favorable then I go back to my earlier question to you regarding Cinco de Mayo, Black History Month, St. Pats day, etc. People oppose them so why are you OK with favoring certain groups and not others?
And I restate what I already said and which you specifically did not respond to...because either the US has specifically repudiate it (slavery) or the Constitution does not address those. The Constitution DOES address religion. Specifically.
ryanb31 wrote:
That was intentional. You had not answered my question about how is it favoring Christians, which you still haven't answered, so I intentionally did not answer. Ask again, and I'll gladly answer.
Which conveniently ignores that the reason I mentioned satanic rituals is because YOU specifically provided a negative statement about satanic worshipers while at the same time attempting to rationalize your own religious favoritism as being appropriate.
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Think about it. St Patrick's Day. What do you think the St stands for? That is a religious holiday. What about Easter or Christmas? Religious holidays. So, why are you OK with those holidays and not OK with a day of prayer. By the way, since you won't answer it in the other thread, many religions, not just Christians, pray, so this does not favor Christians only.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Think about it. St Patrick's Day. What do you think the St stands for? That is a religious holiday. What about Easter or Christmas? Religious holidays. So, why are you OK with those holidays and not OK with a day of prayer.
I don't know where you live but where I live St Patrick's Day is not a religious holiday. Neither is Halloween which also originated with religious connotations.
ryanb31 wrote:
y the way, since you won't answer it in the other thread, many religions, not just Christians, pray, so this does not favor Christians only.
By the way, since you won't answer it in the other thread, you are in fact ok with Congress participating on a Satanic ritual on the day of prayer - right?
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I can't speak for Catholics. Most Catholics I know hardly ever go to church at all, Easter and Christmas mostly. If someone doesn't agree with everything or practice everything their religion preaches I don't think that makes them a bad person.
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As an analogy do you think is ok for a banker to steal (actually steal) money from customer accounts but then to publicly state that bankers should not steal? Would you claim that that isn't hypocrisy?
Sure, that is the definition of hypocrisy.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
If someone doesn't agree with everything or practice everything their religion preaches I don't think that makes them a bad person.
I can't speak to "bad". Hypocrite is what I was speaking to.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Sure, that is the definition of hypocrisy.
And that describing a large number of Catholics.
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HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
I believe most people are trying hard to do their best but we all make mistakes.
Yep. However that statement has nothing to do with church. Nor does it say anything about what a "mistake" is.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
Funny how they all skip that part in the Bible that says we should not preach for money.
You are kidding right? I don't know what church you belong to but in the US the vast majority of churches of all kinds expect that participants must contribute financially. And there are all sorts of explicit and subtle ways to insure that participants are made to feel that they should. But perhaps you belong to a church that relies that money must never be discussed and that contributions are only accepted anonymously.
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You are kidding right? I don't know what church you belong to but in the US the vast majority of churches of all kinds expect that participants must contribute financially. And there are all sorts of explicit and subtle ways to insure that participants are made to feel that they should.
I think you misunderstood. The Bible does say we should pay tithes, but it also says that preachers should not be paid for what they do. That is what I was referring to. Many people start a church to get money and so they must skip over that part of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 9:18 - "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." Paul says it is an abuse to take money for preaching. Acts 20: 33-34 - "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me." 2 Corinthians 11: 7-8 - "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." Paul admits that previously, as Saul, he had taken wages for preaching and that was robbing the saints.
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You are kidding right? I don't know what church you belong to but in the US the vast majority of churches of all kinds expect that participants must contribute financially. And there are all sorts of explicit and subtle ways to insure that participants are made to feel that they should.
I think you misunderstood. The Bible does say we should pay tithes, but it also says that preachers should not be paid for what they do. That is what I was referring to. Many people start a church to get money and so they must skip over that part of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 9:18 - "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." Paul says it is an abuse to take money for preaching. Acts 20: 33-34 - "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me." 2 Corinthians 11: 7-8 - "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." Paul admits that previously, as Saul, he had taken wages for preaching and that was robbing the saints.
HomeGrownFreshness wrote:
I think you misunderstood. The Bible does say we should pay tithes, but it also says that preachers should not be paid for what they do. That is what I was referring to. Many people start a church to get money and so they must skip over that part of the Bible.
Guess the Catholic church skipped that part or has a wildly different interpretation of what "paid" means. Sort of like CEO fringe benefits.