When is a sport not a sport?
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Wjousts wrote:
They are in the rule book.
How are the rules objectively created?
Wjousts wrote:
The point is whether you can objectively declare a winner, not what rules exist determining participation.
And my point is that the rules are not objective. Thus by your criteria no sport is valid.
jschell wrote:
And my point is that the rules are not objective. Thus by your criteria no sport is valid.
And my point is that the rules are arbitrary, but the JUDGING of those rules is not. In, say, soccer, the team that scores the most goals wins. It doesn't matter that that rule is arbitrary, the winner is nevertheless OBJECTIVELY the team that put the ball in the net the most times during 90 minutes. That makes it a sport. Ice dancing is not a sport. Why? Because the outcome is judged SUBJECTIVELY. There is no "ball in the back of the net", simple, clear, unarguable rule for the winner. Instead it's judged on nonsense like "artistry", which has no place in sport. Or do you think painting should be a sport too? I apologize that I wasn't clear enough for you to understand this distinction.
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jschell wrote:
And my point is that the rules are not objective. Thus by your criteria no sport is valid.
And my point is that the rules are arbitrary, but the JUDGING of those rules is not. In, say, soccer, the team that scores the most goals wins. It doesn't matter that that rule is arbitrary, the winner is nevertheless OBJECTIVELY the team that put the ball in the net the most times during 90 minutes. That makes it a sport. Ice dancing is not a sport. Why? Because the outcome is judged SUBJECTIVELY. There is no "ball in the back of the net", simple, clear, unarguable rule for the winner. Instead it's judged on nonsense like "artistry", which has no place in sport. Or do you think painting should be a sport too? I apologize that I wasn't clear enough for you to understand this distinction.
Wjousts wrote:
And my point is that the rules are arbitrary, but the JUDGING of those rules is not.
Nonsense. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/5198207/ce/us/referee-banned-life-match-fixing-loses-appeal&cc=5901?ver=us[^]
Wjousts wrote:
In, say, soccer, the team that scores the most goals wins.
Except of course that judging what a "goal" is is objective. And based on those subjective rules. And contentious enough that IFAB has now approved goal line technology.
Wjousts wrote:
Ice dancing is not a sport. Why? Because the outcome is judged SUBJECTIVELY.
You have a different view than me of how humans referee sporting events including soccer. Or a different definition of objective and subjective. And certainly at odds with specific instances of your claim of the sports that are objectively judged. http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/worldcup/story/World-Cup-referee-blunders-prove-instant-replay-needed-in-soccer[^]
Wjousts wrote:
Instead it's judged on nonsense like "artistry", which has no place in sport. Or do you think painting should be a sport too?
No Olympic sport is judged solely on artistry. And all of the sports that I have seen with artistic elements exist because the sports specifically allow for innovation and yet still allow for specific technical aspects which can be judged as well.
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Wjousts wrote:
And my point is that the rules are arbitrary, but the JUDGING of those rules is not.
Nonsense. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/5198207/ce/us/referee-banned-life-match-fixing-loses-appeal&cc=5901?ver=us[^]
Wjousts wrote:
In, say, soccer, the team that scores the most goals wins.
Except of course that judging what a "goal" is is objective. And based on those subjective rules. And contentious enough that IFAB has now approved goal line technology.
Wjousts wrote:
Ice dancing is not a sport. Why? Because the outcome is judged SUBJECTIVELY.
You have a different view than me of how humans referee sporting events including soccer. Or a different definition of objective and subjective. And certainly at odds with specific instances of your claim of the sports that are objectively judged. http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/worldcup/story/World-Cup-referee-blunders-prove-instant-replay-needed-in-soccer[^]
Wjousts wrote:
Instead it's judged on nonsense like "artistry", which has no place in sport. Or do you think painting should be a sport too?
No Olympic sport is judged solely on artistry. And all of the sports that I have seen with artistic elements exist because the sports specifically allow for innovation and yet still allow for specific technical aspects which can be judged as well.
jschell wrote:
Except of course that judging what a "goal" is is objective. And based on those subjective rules.
And contentious enough that IFAB has now approved goal line technology.Good. I'm glad you agree with me. Judging a goal is objective. The ball crosses the line or it doesn't. There is no room for interpretation. That fallible humans sometimes make mistakes is neither here nor there. That goal line technology looks like it'll be used actually supports my assertion that judging a goal is objective, not subjective. Show me the equivalent of goal line technology for ice dancing, and you'll have an argument for ice dancing being objective. But you can't, because there is no objective way to measure artistry. That's why it's not a sport.
jschell wrote:
And all of the sports that I have seen with artistic elements exist because the sports specifically allow for innovation and yet still allow for specific technical aspects which can be judged as well.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? To go back to soccer, yes you can play it beautifully like the Brazilians or the Argentinians, or you can play it technically and defensively like the English or the Italians. But it doesn't matter. Neither approach actually scores you points and wins you the game. Only goals win games. If a game ends in a draw, they don't declare a winner based on who played the prettiest. Really, I suspect you are just trolling. Or are you really that offended by my throw away comment about sports?
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jschell wrote:
Except of course that judging what a "goal" is is objective. And based on those subjective rules.
And contentious enough that IFAB has now approved goal line technology.Good. I'm glad you agree with me. Judging a goal is objective. The ball crosses the line or it doesn't. There is no room for interpretation. That fallible humans sometimes make mistakes is neither here nor there. That goal line technology looks like it'll be used actually supports my assertion that judging a goal is objective, not subjective. Show me the equivalent of goal line technology for ice dancing, and you'll have an argument for ice dancing being objective. But you can't, because there is no objective way to measure artistry. That's why it's not a sport.
jschell wrote:
And all of the sports that I have seen with artistic elements exist because the sports specifically allow for innovation and yet still allow for specific technical aspects which can be judged as well.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? To go back to soccer, yes you can play it beautifully like the Brazilians or the Argentinians, or you can play it technically and defensively like the English or the Italians. But it doesn't matter. Neither approach actually scores you points and wins you the game. Only goals win games. If a game ends in a draw, they don't declare a winner based on who played the prettiest. Really, I suspect you are just trolling. Or are you really that offended by my throw away comment about sports?
Wjousts wrote:
Good. I'm glad you agree with me. Judging a goal is objective. The ball crosses the line or it doesn't. There is no room for interpretation.
Err...perhaps you didn't read what I posted. Right NOW it is subjectively judged. And right NOW that is a problem. And when this specific technology is implemented, in the future, it will be only ONE aspect of the game of which the vast majority of the rest is still refereed subjectively.
Wjousts wrote:
That fallible humans sometimes make mistakes is neither here nor there
Except sometimes it isn't a mistake - it is deliberate. And other times it is controversial, because it is subjective.
Wjousts wrote:
But you can't, because there is no objective way to measure artistry. That's why it's not a sport
As I already said NO Omplypic event is judged solely on artistry. You restating that over and over again doesn't make it so.
Wjousts wrote:
What the heck is that supposed to mean?
There is only one way for a ball to go into a goal. There are many, many ways for a floor excercise to be executed, including the required elements. This is specifically demonstrated over time as the required elements have increased in complexity as the participants have found ways to do it. This is true for any number of sports that allow for variety.
Wjousts wrote:
If a game ends in a draw, they don't declare a winner based on who played the prettiest.
Which only demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea how they score the events that you are deriding.