Did the Chinese discover America?
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I don't understand why this is so important. America has been discovered several times, by many different groups of people. The most important of these discoveries was the one which occured in 1492, as it is the only one which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America". "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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I don't understand why this is so important. America has been discovered several times, by many different groups of people. The most important of these discoveries was the one which occured in 1492, as it is the only one which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America". "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: I don't understand why this is so important. I think that it might not be important in the way that it will not change anything in our day-to-day life. At least not in any obvious ways. However, it is important to know the history of how things were and what was going on. Who knows what other interesting discoveries are going to come up when more people will start looking into this?
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I don't understand why this is so important. America has been discovered several times, by many different groups of people. The most important of these discoveries was the one which occured in 1492, as it is the only one which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America". "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America" Yep, an also the abuse and extermination of enormous numbers of people :((
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Konstantin Vasserman wrote: Did the Chinese discover America? What Stan said, plus the fact that the Americas have been inhabited for a long time making any "discovery" claims a bit silly.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Konstantin Vasserman wrote: Did the Chinese discover America? What Stan said, plus the fact that the Americas have been inhabited for a long time making any "discovery" claims a bit silly.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaIt not so much the "discovery" that is important but the historical value. Few historians really care about who was actually first but most are very interested in proof that a given civilization was able to travel the seas the 'discover' America (or are ready to refute any such claims :) )
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Stan Shannon wrote: which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America" Yep, an also the abuse and extermination of enormous numbers of people :((
Juan Carlos Cobas wrote: Yep, an also the abuse and extermination of enormous numbers of people Exactly. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the only trully historically significant discovery of the place occured when my blood thirsty, asshole ancestors, the Scots-Irish, found out about the place. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Stan Shannon wrote: I don't understand why this is so important. I think that it might not be important in the way that it will not change anything in our day-to-day life. At least not in any obvious ways. However, it is important to know the history of how things were and what was going on. Who knows what other interesting discoveries are going to come up when more people will start looking into this?
Well, yes. I think it is very interesting historically how advanced the Chinese were as Europe began to emerge from the dark ages. The Chinese could easily have overwhelmed the entire planet at that time yet choose not to. If they had, we would be living in a world dominated by Eastern and not Western culture today. It is just the "discovery" part that I find objectionable. Any discovering they did led to nothing significant. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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It not so much the "discovery" that is important but the historical value. Few historians really care about who was actually first but most are very interested in proof that a given civilization was able to travel the seas the 'discover' America (or are ready to refute any such claims :) )
William De Prêtre wrote: It not so much the "discovery" that is important but the historical value. Few historians really care about who was actually first but most are very interested in proof that a given civilization was able to travel the seas the 'discover' America Indeed you are right, for the pure historians and nobody else. Lets face it, the book is all about shock tactis. A dramatic title which has nothing to do with proving the Chinese could sail around the world, but rather a title which has everything to do with upstaging the status quo and infuriating Euro-centric historians. The guy is trying to make some money and get a bestseller. If he was a true seeker of the truth then he would be discussing and highlighting the other amazing feats of the voyage the Chinese undertook, not just that they discovered the Americas first. Frankly he is just re-enforcing the whole "does it have something to do with the US? Yes? print it! No? bin it!" situation. However I am still interested in reading the book. Got it on the list for my next book club. I am sure it is interesting, I just wish the chap was a bit more honest and I hope he does not purely focus on the American thing.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
1421: The Year China Discovered America but than something wrong with author's: The first Europeans who came to the Americas found Chinese... what about: Vikings ... discovered North America around the year 1000 http://www.ericsson.com/sponsorship/entertainment/LEEP.asp[^] t!
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Well, it is up to them to prove the assertion. Not just optimistic reading of disjoint evidence that lends itself to a multitude of conclusions. But as someone else pointed out, who really cares. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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I don't understand why this is so important. America has been discovered several times, by many different groups of people. The most important of these discoveries was the one which occured in 1492, as it is the only one which had significant consequencies - i.e. naming the place "America". "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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1421: The Year China Discovered America but than something wrong with author's: The first Europeans who came to the Americas found Chinese... what about: Vikings ... discovered North America around the year 1000 http://www.ericsson.com/sponsorship/entertainment/LEEP.asp[^] t!
Tibor Blazko wrote: what about: Vikings ... discovered North America around the year 1000 The Vikings discovered Canada, and quite rightly decided it wasn't worth having. They went home, as any sensible person would. I've gone to find myself. If I should get back before I return, please keep me here.
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Yeah, this was discussed here a few months ago. Basically it comes down to this: 1. Native Americans first discovered the Americas. 2. Kennewick Man (1,2) raises the possiblity of european-like / North Asian-like settlers in the Americas around 7300 B.C. 3. Vikings discovered America around 1000 A.D. 4. Chinese might've discovered it around 1421. 5. Europeans (re)discovered it in 1492. There's been some people who, speaking about the european claim to have "discovered" the Americas, consider it to be awefully euro-centric to say that Europeans discovered the Americas when there were already people living there. (I remember one Native American, a few years ago, who landed an airplane in Europe and claimed to discover it - to drive home the idea that Europeans cannot claim to discover America anymore than he can claim to have discovered europe.) In any case, if the Europeans didn't discover America, then, by the same token, the Chinese didn't either. Claiming otherwise, would be Sino-centric, wouldn't it? :-D Alternatively, you could argue that the 1492 discovery was significant because "it stayed discovered". In that interpretation, Chinese and Viking discoveries are similar, but the Vikings were first. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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Well, yes. I think it is very interesting historically how advanced the Chinese were as Europe began to emerge from the dark ages. The Chinese could easily have overwhelmed the entire planet at that time yet choose not to. If they had, we would be living in a world dominated by Eastern and not Western culture today. It is just the "discovery" part that I find objectionable. Any discovering they did led to nothing significant. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Not quite. They had hard time defending themselves against Mongolian nomads (which were just a tiny fraction of their own population). China was lacking all vital ingredients to go forward : organisational flexibility, persistance in achieving goals and above all - personal initiative. There wasn't ever a shred of chance that any eastern culture would prevaile worldwide. It takes really more barbaric people to achieve something like that. As for the discovery, it's what you do with it - that makes all the difference. Dejan Petrovic
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How do you define discover? How can you discover a place that already has people living there?? If I'm going to the US next week, do I discover it ??? Notorious SMC
The difference between the almost-right word & the right word is a really large matter - it's the difference between the lightning bug and the Lightning Mark Twain
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please Mark Twain -
Not quite. They had hard time defending themselves against Mongolian nomads (which were just a tiny fraction of their own population). China was lacking all vital ingredients to go forward : organisational flexibility, persistance in achieving goals and above all - personal initiative. There wasn't ever a shred of chance that any eastern culture would prevaile worldwide. It takes really more barbaric people to achieve something like that. As for the discovery, it's what you do with it - that makes all the difference. Dejan Petrovic
Dejan Petrovic wrote: They had hard time defending themselves against Mongolian nomads So did the Europeans. Besides by the 15th century the Mongol threat was larger over, wasn't it? Dejan Petrovic wrote: organisational flexibility, persistance in achieving goals and above all - personal initiative. Agreed. Also, China has never been an outwardly looking or an expantionist nation. Dejan Petrovic wrote: There wasn't ever a shred of chance that any eastern culture would prevaile worldwide. It takes really more barbaric people to achieve something like that. Also agree. I was just saying that they had the technology and the masses of people necessary for the undertaking of world conquest. There were obvious cultural reasons why they never did. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle