American Taxes 101 (an analogy)
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You say $92K a year is *not* rich? Where do you live? If I were making $92K, I'd be livin' it large here in KY. :cool: As it is, I'm nowhere *near* that, and I still do better than many. You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
It would be a severe strain for you making 92K to make payments on an average house in the PRC, but you could live like a king here in AZ. Location, location, location - the three most important things to consider... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
I though you would find the following interesting. How Taxes Work.... Keep in mind that 10% of the population pays ~69% of the taxes, ie: those "rich" people making over 92k per year (like a firefighter in Marin county). Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59. That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language-- a tax cut). "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and The sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man, but he, pointing to the tenth. "But he got $7!". "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too, ........It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh man, why should he get $7 back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all the breaks!". Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. T
Richard Melton wrote: They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! I enjoyed the story but won't comment on wether it is a far analogy or not. I will say this though: Surely if the 10th chap did not pitch up that night the bill would have been less and so it would not have been 52 dollars outstanding, but a few dollars less? Just a minor technicality, but as we all know every nit picker will use it to invalidate the whole arguement.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africalauren wrote: theyre making a movie about me "confessions of a dangerous bitch" (hey! she said it, not me)
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KaЯl wrote: What about health care? State funded medicare for the poor. Funding determined by individual states, who -yes, also tax. Some monies do come down from the Federal level. The problem here are liberal benefits granted by individual states that are difficult to fund when times are difficult. I'll give you an example. I live in Indiana. We (for some reason, still can't figure it out) have elected a Democratic governor for the last 8+ years. Times were pretty good up until the dot.com bubble burst. We're not a techhie state, a distribution center / automobile parts manfacturer / farming. The end result was that we enefitted from the fake wealth (ok, that is harsh) generated by the bubble. So the State of Indiana creates a magnificant set of health benefits for the children (just one example, by the way). The benefits are so good, and the state politicians soooo Democratic that they go out and explain to union workers that their children would be much better off on the state program, and, they in turn could save some money - that, they should drop the group health insurance on the children and move them to medicade. Guess what. Economy turns down, tax collections go down and now the State of Indiana has a deficit. KaЯl wrote: access to culture? Libraries are free. Sometimes museums are as well. Nope, you have to pay for plays. However, here in Indianapolis there is free "Shakesphere in the park" during the summer. KaЯl wrote: access to comunnication systems? You have to pay for phones. In decent sized districts, 'net access is free in libraries (ok, courtesy of a Democrat - Al Gore, the last VP who pushed for it). Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop Pretty soon people wake up and realize that Mike
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Richard Melton wrote: Fundamentally, it comes down to if you believe people are the same as they have been for thousands of years, or you believe that mankind has evolved past some sort of "predatory" phase of human development. So far believing the former has done better than the latter. Perfection may be somewhere in between the two. Any philosophy that states that the primary driving force behind human beings is not or should not be selfishness is doomed. -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"
Russell Morris wrote: Any philosophy that states that the primary driving force behind human beings is not or should not be selfishness is doomed. So, a philosophy which would prone to forget selfishness and to love our neighbor as ourselve is doomed, isn't it ?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Marc Clifton wrote: After all, the constitution says that all men (and women, I suppose!) are created equal. They may be created equal, but how they turn out is a different matter. Some are productive, useful members of society, some are lifetime parasites. Taxing the productive, those with the drive and genius to thrive and contribute to the pool of capital available to benefit all, in order to enable the worthless to breed and consume unearned resources, is economic suicide. Equalization of opportunity is a good thing; equal distribution of wealth regardless of the value of the recipient or contribution to general weal is evil. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003Some are productive, useful members of society, some are lifetime parasites. Taxing the productive, those with the drive and genius to thrive and contribute to the pool of capital available to benefit all, in order to enable the worthless to breed and consume unearned resources, is economic suicide. I agree. But you're ignoring the middle. Take for example my girlfriend. She makes $8/hr working at a daycare, doing one of the most important jobs on earth--taking care of an infant human being, someone else's at that. And she works her butt off, unlike her coworkers that take cigarette breaks, coffee breaks, donut breaks, and when they're actually in the facility, are yacking and not working. Now, at $16,000 a year, pre tax, she can't possibly afford an apartment here in Rhode Island. And the taxes taken out of her paycheck are considerable, and that doesn't even take into account her contribution to her health care plan. On this salary, she has no hope of ever attaining the American Dream--owning her own home, etc. What I'd like to see is for this country to change its system of values, and place people like educators in the front of the income distribution line. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
> helmet would be your best chance of survival. Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB). Similiar to the USA NHTSA. Another argument for another time, but statistically you are incorrect and policy wise you have the wrong value system.
Richard Melton wrote: Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB). Similiar to the USA NHTSA. Haven't heard of either of them. Richard Melton wrote: Another argument for another time, but statistically you are incorrect... Statistics can be used to prove anything. I would back someone to live with the helmet on if they hit a car or the road with their head. I wouldn't for the person without the helmet. Richard Melton wrote: ...policy wise you have the wrong value system. I don't understand what you mean here. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Michael Martin wrote: They say that a community will see one of their own having problems, pull together and help that individual/family out. I guess you won't believe me then, but it is quite common for that to happen here. Last year there were at least three occasions where neighboring farmers help plow, seed, or harvest the fields because the owner was ill or had other problems. Its also not uncommon for pancake breakfasts or speghetti dinners to be held for the benefit of people who lost a home in a fire or have serious medical problems. I love living in rural areas :-D James "It is self repeating, of unknown pattern" Data - Star Trek: The Next Generation
James T. Johnson wrote: I guess you won't believe me then, but it is quite common for that to happen here. Last year there were at least three occasions where neighboring farmers help plow, seed, or harvest the fields because the owner was ill or had other problems. Its also not uncommon for pancake breakfasts or speghetti dinners to be held for the benefit of people who lost a home in a fire or have serious medical problems. I love living in rural areas :-D Apples and Oranges James. The same thing happens quite a bit out here in the country. I grew up where the country (rural) and suburbs met, it is completely different to the cities and built up areas. I have noticed that in the past 30 years that the generosity of spirit of the country and bush areas is dying. Not as quickly as the suburban areas but it's still happening. I still stand by my statement that it's basically dog eat dog and no one gives a fuck about others. I see it everyday and even here in the Code Project community it pervades. Not so much in the chatty cheerful regulars butin those on the fringes and the others that occasionaly drop in. Not a good trait in people but one that's growing and I think soon it will only happen to people well known to the benefactor or when they will get publicity they think is worth more than the cost to them. Similar to Bill giving all the money to India. He didn't give money, it was licenses that cost him nothing (OK so it cost to develop the software but it has already been paid off) and he's giving it to people who wouldn't have bought the licenses anyway. But now he is getting the products out in to the hands of the second largest population in the world. Hoping to get them hooked, then get the government followed by he people buying Microsoft. Eventually he will have development or call centres running there. I know the analogy isn't particularly good but it was meant to show the way I believe people are now or are heading towards. Ulterior motives. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Some are productive, useful members of society, some are lifetime parasites. Taxing the productive, those with the drive and genius to thrive and contribute to the pool of capital available to benefit all, in order to enable the worthless to breed and consume unearned resources, is economic suicide. I agree. But you're ignoring the middle. Take for example my girlfriend. She makes $8/hr working at a daycare, doing one of the most important jobs on earth--taking care of an infant human being, someone else's at that. And she works her butt off, unlike her coworkers that take cigarette breaks, coffee breaks, donut breaks, and when they're actually in the facility, are yacking and not working. Now, at $16,000 a year, pre tax, she can't possibly afford an apartment here in Rhode Island. And the taxes taken out of her paycheck are considerable, and that doesn't even take into account her contribution to her health care plan. On this salary, she has no hope of ever attaining the American Dream--owning her own home, etc. What I'd like to see is for this country to change its system of values, and place people like educators in the front of the income distribution line. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: What I'd like to see is for this country to change its system of values Absolutely! But stealing the earned wealth of the rich isn't going to do the job. Tax reform is a noble goal - it is a terribly skewed system aimed at reducing the society to a two-class structure, with most of us at the bottom. But it is the very middle class that continues to vote for politicians who promise easy solutions and more tea and circuses for the masses that perpetuate the problem. Ronald Reagan won an election in the PRC on the promise of a one-time $300 tax rebate, beating out a far more qualified candidate who proposed a systemic restructuring of the state property tax to ensure fairer taxation for all. He then went on to totally destroy the CA school systems in order to create the illusion of fiscal health by generating a budget surplus. The middle class voters lapped up the promise of $300, and couldn't be bothered to try to understand the more complex, but fairer alternative they were offerred. We need a system that rewards the creation of real wealth, and its preservation, rather than the one we now have which rewards sloth and punishes hard work and responsible savings. I favor a complete elimination of taxation on income - it is always 100% destructive in the long run. With the exclusion of the minimum necessities for living, consumption should, instead, be taxed. This would result in the rich being taxed more than the poor, of course, but for the right reasons, not wrong ones. Those who own much consume a greater proportion of government services - fire and police protection first among them - than those who own little. But under such a system, those who have little would have an incentive to earn more, and to contribute to the future wealth of the nation by saving as much as possible of it. The capital that savings deposits represent is the primary basis for economic growth, as these make possible the loans that allow capital investment in plant and equipment which support new industries. It's insane that, the harder one works and saves, the more tax one has to pay. That must change if we are to avoid becoming a third world nation... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
Richard Melton wrote: show me a capitalistic socitety (that started out that way) that has gone socialist. The Peoples' Republic of California comes to mind... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003Bahahaha ! Good one. Given their current taxes and deficit, it kind of makes my intended point for me.
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If you make a million bucks a year and 75% of your income all goes back to taxes, you're still left with $250,000. If you make $50K a year and give away 50% of your income to taxes, you're only left with $25K. :-D If the tax were, say, 15%, then the guy with a million bucks would be able to afford hiring a few more of the $50K workers. Or giving them raises to $75K. Wouldn't that be nice? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
The million bucks figure I brought up for argument's sake was someone's salary. Payroll is part of the company's budget. How many CEOs take their own money to hire new people?
The million bucks figure I brought up for argument's sake was someone's salary. Payroll is part of the company's budget. How many CEOs take their own money to hire new people? Isn't that exactly what happens? When the budget is figured out, salaries is one part of the equation. If the CEO gets $750,000 instead of $1M, that means there's $250,000 more to allocate to other budgetary issues, which includes the general salary pool. This point is brought home much more clearly when you consider a small business--maybe 3 or 4 employees, where the owner may not take a salary at all in the first couple years of the business so that he/she can afford to pay needed employees. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka