A Curious Situation At Work
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My boss, the GM, last week offered me a proposition - clean my desk (I work best in clutter, while he can't stand an out of place paper clip) and he'll give me an immediate 10% raise. That sounds good on the face of things, but consider: I was hired at an extremely low wage to do something much easier - maintaining customer databases and company computer systems - but I was rather quickly utilized for much more challenging tasks, like designing underground electrical distribution systems for new development projects. Since then I've graduated to designing major projects, including structural steel and concrete foundations, water well sites, and wastewater collection systems and lift stations. Expanding my skills has been entirely at my own expense, on my own time. In addition, I have more years of engineering experience than the GM, though admittedly most of those years were spent doing stuff a lot harder than anything we do. I've done the research, not just on headhunter sites, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, and I've discounted my experience to include only the 8 years I've spent in the electrical power business, ignoring twenty years of project management and electronics engineering. My current salary is 2/3 of the median for this industry, in this state; the raise I'm being offered will bring me up to the 2% level statewide. I'm not about to quit over this - it's a fun job working with good people who don't demand a whole lot of formality, and I appreciate that a lot. Corporate pricks and their rules deserve the Bobbit treatment... But I wonder how much I should push this issue. My boss proposed it in a manner that suggested that I should be delighted to receive such an offer; to my mind, it's an offer to increase my income to minimum wage. Professionally, it's a gross insult, but I don't want to push it too hard. I'm 58, and despite industry claims to the contrary, age discrimination is alive and well in Engineering. If you're over 40, you're unemployable. I'm lucky to have a job at my age, in this country, but I can't afford to retire yet, and unless I can raise my base salary to a much higher level - industry average, at least - I won't be able to afford retiring at all. How hard do you think I should push on this issue? My planned approach is to tell the GM that I much appreciate any increase I receive, but that I'd really like to understand why he persists in paying me a salary so far below industry averages, despite reviews that rate my performance as far above average. In truth, he h
Roger Wright wrote:
I'm lucky to have a job at my age, in this country, but I can't afford to retire yet, and unless I can raise my base salary to a much higher level - industry average, at least - I won't be able to afford retiring at all.
Sounds to me you need to figure out your priorities first. If in fact compensation is of concern then you should start looking for another job with the understanding that you might be giving something up. This doesn't of course mean that you must take the job, but an offer on the table, means that you would have a stronger negotiating stance - as long as your boss considers it a real offer and one that you would take. If however you want to stay where you are then you should look into asking for a raise every siz months. Not with any intention of getting it that often but merely in the hope that an incremental increase might add up over time.
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My boss, the GM, last week offered me a proposition - clean my desk (I work best in clutter, while he can't stand an out of place paper clip) and he'll give me an immediate 10% raise. That sounds good on the face of things, but consider: I was hired at an extremely low wage to do something much easier - maintaining customer databases and company computer systems - but I was rather quickly utilized for much more challenging tasks, like designing underground electrical distribution systems for new development projects. Since then I've graduated to designing major projects, including structural steel and concrete foundations, water well sites, and wastewater collection systems and lift stations. Expanding my skills has been entirely at my own expense, on my own time. In addition, I have more years of engineering experience than the GM, though admittedly most of those years were spent doing stuff a lot harder than anything we do. I've done the research, not just on headhunter sites, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, and I've discounted my experience to include only the 8 years I've spent in the electrical power business, ignoring twenty years of project management and electronics engineering. My current salary is 2/3 of the median for this industry, in this state; the raise I'm being offered will bring me up to the 2% level statewide. I'm not about to quit over this - it's a fun job working with good people who don't demand a whole lot of formality, and I appreciate that a lot. Corporate pricks and their rules deserve the Bobbit treatment... But I wonder how much I should push this issue. My boss proposed it in a manner that suggested that I should be delighted to receive such an offer; to my mind, it's an offer to increase my income to minimum wage. Professionally, it's a gross insult, but I don't want to push it too hard. I'm 58, and despite industry claims to the contrary, age discrimination is alive and well in Engineering. If you're over 40, you're unemployable. I'm lucky to have a job at my age, in this country, but I can't afford to retire yet, and unless I can raise my base salary to a much higher level - industry average, at least - I won't be able to afford retiring at all. How hard do you think I should push on this issue? My planned approach is to tell the GM that I much appreciate any increase I receive, but that I'd really like to understand why he persists in paying me a salary so far below industry averages, despite reviews that rate my performance as far above average. In truth, he h
Your boss may not have considered that your pay is low, and is thinking that giving a 10% increase is a good offer - so I think you need to let him know, nicely, that you will still be being paid less than you are worth. In the scheme of things there has been no change in circumstance except the boss if offering you more money on condition of a tidy desk. If you have been working happily (as far as he is aware) on your current income, then he will be seeing it as a favour to you. I think I would tidy my desk, then speak to the boss and tel him that his offer prompted you to investigate salaries for your role, and you have seen that, even with the increase you will be undervalued. Ask if you can have a regular salary review from now on against market values; accept the 10% gracefully and then hope that he will review your income again shortly. Worst case is you get a raise of 10% and have to tidy your desk.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I think you need to find a suitably tactful way to say 'if you think money will motivate me, why aren't you paying me what I'm worth?'.
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My boss, the GM, last week offered me a proposition - clean my desk (I work best in clutter, while he can't stand an out of place paper clip) and he'll give me an immediate 10% raise. That sounds good on the face of things, but consider: I was hired at an extremely low wage to do something much easier - maintaining customer databases and company computer systems - but I was rather quickly utilized for much more challenging tasks, like designing underground electrical distribution systems for new development projects. Since then I've graduated to designing major projects, including structural steel and concrete foundations, water well sites, and wastewater collection systems and lift stations. Expanding my skills has been entirely at my own expense, on my own time. In addition, I have more years of engineering experience than the GM, though admittedly most of those years were spent doing stuff a lot harder than anything we do. I've done the research, not just on headhunter sites, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, and I've discounted my experience to include only the 8 years I've spent in the electrical power business, ignoring twenty years of project management and electronics engineering. My current salary is 2/3 of the median for this industry, in this state; the raise I'm being offered will bring me up to the 2% level statewide. I'm not about to quit over this - it's a fun job working with good people who don't demand a whole lot of formality, and I appreciate that a lot. Corporate pricks and their rules deserve the Bobbit treatment... But I wonder how much I should push this issue. My boss proposed it in a manner that suggested that I should be delighted to receive such an offer; to my mind, it's an offer to increase my income to minimum wage. Professionally, it's a gross insult, but I don't want to push it too hard. I'm 58, and despite industry claims to the contrary, age discrimination is alive and well in Engineering. If you're over 40, you're unemployable. I'm lucky to have a job at my age, in this country, but I can't afford to retire yet, and unless I can raise my base salary to a much higher level - industry average, at least - I won't be able to afford retiring at all. How hard do you think I should push on this issue? My planned approach is to tell the GM that I much appreciate any increase I receive, but that I'd really like to understand why he persists in paying me a salary so far below industry averages, despite reviews that rate my performance as far above average. In truth, he h
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Roger Wright wrote:
I'm 58
Ya poor old bugger! I'd put most of the points above under his nose and ask for a reason why you are being under paid. Worst case is you get the measly 10%, anything more can then be treated as cream. Or go in and ask for a 25% raise to bring you near where the minimum is. Or go in and ask for a 40% raise to bring you to where you think you are worth. Which ever number you want to go for I'd guess he will whittle it down considerably! Personally I'd ask for the 40% plus 3 months bonus per year to make up for the gross insult of underpaying a professional. Then go looking for another job! I'm the same age and similar depth of experience, thank god I don't have the geo ties to anywhere so I can be a tart and go for the money!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
You're a lucky man, my friend, having so few ties. What I plan to do is clean my desk, make a list of tasks for him to prioritize, and accept the 10%. Then I'm going to ask him, "What does it take to induce this company to pay an average wage?" I think that's fairly non-combative, and I think I know where he gets his odd notions. A few months ago he became a Director of an industry association specific to Arizona electrical utilities, and in that position he commissioned a compensation survey of all the group members. The GM has a habit of printing stuff to the office common printer, then forgetting to pick it up, so we're all in the habit of sorting through the stack and delivering his stuff to him. I happened to see the results of his survey when he printed them, and it looked interesting. So I read it. Every position in our company had a range of values listed, but the range listed for Engineer was followed by the comment, "... entry level." He doesn't see well, and can't read normal sized print, so I suspect that he missed that little detail. That would be consistent with the fact that what he's offering me is near the top of the range his survey reported, and I think he truly believes that he's giving me top dollar. Knowing the GM, I think he'll be initially offended, then he'll settle down and tell me that, if I can prove to him that his figures are wrong, he'll make an adjustment. That won't be hard, since the US Bureau of Labor Statistics kindly publishes verifiable data online, and provides a custom query service for users to customize reports. He's a nit-picky, unreasonably demanding bastard, but he's easily the most honest and fair man I've ever worked for. I may not get full value, but the odds are good that he'll counter with something as close to fair as his Board will authorize. If not, I'll have to seriously rethink my own values and priorities in the next few months, and maybe do something entirely different. It wouldn't be the first time! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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Roger Wright wrote:
but the odds of someone my age landing one of them are fairly slim
Don't think like this. This coupled with some bitterness towards your employers or job can spiral into "I hate my job but can't leave". Been there before and its a bad place to be. I'd clean the desk (which is a very odd condition for a raise), take the money and start looking for a new job. If your boss is willing to throw around +10% over a dirty desk and you're a valued employee with other employment options then I think you have the upper hand and can squeeze your boss for whatever you want.
I don't know where you're from, but in the US, age discrimination is a very real, and entirely ignored problem. If you're an engineer and over 40, the deck is stacked against you. I've been in the spot you describe before, as well, and I know the down side well. There's no danger of "hating my job" - it's damned fun most of the time. I'd be hard pressed to find another position that's half as enjoyable. But I'm being paid $30k a year less than average for this area, and I'm getting tired of it. Unfortunately, there is no other job requiring my skills within several hundred miles, and that sorta screws up my life in other ways if I go looking. My best bet is to try my best to change the terms of things here to something I can accept without feeling used. That's what I'm working toward...
Will Rogers never met me.
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It's a test. He's seeing how easily he can control you. NO WAIT! It's a test. He's seeing how much you care about money. NO WAIT! It's a test. He's seeing if you've been lying all these years about "needing" the clutter. NO WAIT! It's not a test. It's just an excuse to give you the raise he knows you deserve, because he thinks (as rightly he should!) that nobody in their right mind would refuse thousands of dollars for 10 minutes (30 minutes?) of work.
You're obviously daft, or possibly Irish. Cleaning my desk, the repository of every piece of paper or hardware that no one in the company can understand or deal with for 8 years, is not a 30 minute task. It's been days, and I'm not half done. One thing I've already noticed, though, is that before, if someone needed a piece of information, I could lay hands on it in seconds. Now I have no idea where to begin looking for it.
Will Rogers never met me.
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You're a lucky man, my friend, having so few ties. What I plan to do is clean my desk, make a list of tasks for him to prioritize, and accept the 10%. Then I'm going to ask him, "What does it take to induce this company to pay an average wage?" I think that's fairly non-combative, and I think I know where he gets his odd notions. A few months ago he became a Director of an industry association specific to Arizona electrical utilities, and in that position he commissioned a compensation survey of all the group members. The GM has a habit of printing stuff to the office common printer, then forgetting to pick it up, so we're all in the habit of sorting through the stack and delivering his stuff to him. I happened to see the results of his survey when he printed them, and it looked interesting. So I read it. Every position in our company had a range of values listed, but the range listed for Engineer was followed by the comment, "... entry level." He doesn't see well, and can't read normal sized print, so I suspect that he missed that little detail. That would be consistent with the fact that what he's offering me is near the top of the range his survey reported, and I think he truly believes that he's giving me top dollar. Knowing the GM, I think he'll be initially offended, then he'll settle down and tell me that, if I can prove to him that his figures are wrong, he'll make an adjustment. That won't be hard, since the US Bureau of Labor Statistics kindly publishes verifiable data online, and provides a custom query service for users to customize reports. He's a nit-picky, unreasonably demanding bastard, but he's easily the most honest and fair man I've ever worked for. I may not get full value, but the odds are good that he'll counter with something as close to fair as his Board will authorize. If not, I'll have to seriously rethink my own values and priorities in the next few months, and maybe do something entirely different. It wouldn't be the first time! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
You have some benefits over me
Roger Wright wrote:
but he's easily the most honest and fair man I've ever worked for
Not something I can say about my management. If he thinks he is paying you top dollar then you stand an excellent chance of correcting his perception and gaining a fair salary. Good luck.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Bosses play like that. Giving you crumbs and telling you it's freshly baked, still oven-warm bread. I wouldn't take the raise based on the condition to 'clean' your desk (unless things are starting to move on their own, that is), which is about the most stupid reason I ever heard to give someone a raise. I would: a) throw the figures at him. b) say you'll keep your desk 'cleaner' if he gives you a 10% raise (or you could also try to bargain for 12% or 15%). So, in fact turn the condition around.
double raise = 0.1;
if(cleandesk){
salary += salary*raise;
}//becomes
salary += salary*raise;
if(raise >= 0.1){
CleanDesk();
}Good luck and let us know what happened will you ? :-)
I will certainly keep the community posted on the outcome of this, since it appears to be a common problem. Why else would this trivial post have generated more replies than any other I've posted in months? :-D I'm not bargaining for 10% or 15%, though. The difference between my salary and the 50th percentile salary for Arizona is 50%. This is not going to be an easy battle...
Will Rogers never met me.
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Why not counter and say you'll take a 30% increase to keep your desk clean? If you clean your desk, you'll only clutter it again and he probably hasn't considered this. This way, you get a better pay rate and he gets to keep his OCD under control.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierThat's got some potential, Pete - thanks for the suggestion! :-D I'm certainly not above using blackmail to achieve my goals. If it's good enough for the US Government, it should be good enough for me.
Will Rogers never met me.
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That's got some potential, Pete - thanks for the suggestion! :-D I'm certainly not above using blackmail to achieve my goals. If it's good enough for the US Government, it should be good enough for me.
Will Rogers never met me.
It's all about setting expectations. :-D
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
Roger, the one thing a lot of us have come to appreciate about you is your eloquence and how you explain things. You have a wise bonce on the top of your shoulders and I'm quite sure that on the day you'll know what to say. It seems your boss is more concerned about his own shallow existence than he is about appreciating the excellent bloke who works for him. I don't know if engineering is like it is in the UK where everyone seems to know what everyone is doing. Have you thought of applying for some of those jobs if only to "test the water" and see if ageism is indeed the malaise you understand it to be? You and I are the same age. I told my wife a few years ago that when I was made redundant in 2009 it would probably be my last job in IT. For some reason though, I've always found jobs but unfortunately I've often gone to small companies that don't have the reserves to see them through difficult trading periods. At 58, I still hold my own against the young 'uns. I'd really like my current job to be my last job before I hang up my keyboard but the more I have to move around the more upbeat I am. :)
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
Much to my surprise, I've actually had head hunters calling me lately. I've put them off because I really like the job I have, but I don't know if I can afford to do so any longer. The job is great, but the pay is lousy, and I can't figure out why. Every job I've had in my life, I got raises when no one else did, I got promotions when there were no spots open on the org chart... This one started off wrong, because they hired me to do something I can do, but they didn't really need - database management and computer maintenance. What they learned was that I have far more valuable skills, but having started at a ridiculously low rate of pay, I have trouble getting management to adjust it upwards to a more reasonable range. I can well believe that you "hold your own" against the young ones; we don't have any young ones. There is no one able to take my place when I do retire. That's sad. I'd love to have a young tribal member with a technical degree to train to take my place when I go, or die at my desk. Even younger engineers I encounter when dealing with vendors and sales support people lack the strong technical knowledge that we had to acquire in college and our early years of employment. When we go, there's going to be a huge recession, for lack of ability in the market.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Clean the desk and take the raise. It'll probably take a month after the raise for the desk to get fully cluttered again, or was the keeping of the desk clean a part of the deal?
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES! Abraham Lincoln
Given the rate at which new tasks are dropped on my desk with TOP Priority, I should be able to work this into a 10% per month deal, if I can manage it properly. There is never a day when I fail to walk into the office with a plan in mind, and a list of things I want to accomplish for the day. There hasn't been a single day in the past month when that plan wasn't tossed out the door with a new crisis to take its place within ten minutes of my walking in the door. But you raise a good point - there was no mention of keeping the desk neat. This raises an opportunity for future raises, and sets a precedent for the value of cleaning my desk. At 10% per event, it shouldn't take long to reach my target wage. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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Good luck as I would clean my desk, take the raise, and look for a better job. At least you are in sight of the bell curve. I am so far to the left that a 10% raise would only get me in sight of it. Notice I said look for a better job not get a better job. I too am pushing 58 and worry about the "age discrimination", especially since I do not interview well. Once I am on the job they like me but getting there is hard for me.
Work on your interview skills... that's really hard for us engineers as we don't tend to be very sensitive to people skills, but it's worth learning. Your salary is a bit like mine. According to the US BLS, my current salary is just below the 2nd percentile for Arizona. It would take a 50% raise to get me to the 50th percentile. I can't make too many waves, as I really can't afford to be unemployed again. I've been laid off for many years twice, lost everything, and recovered. But I don't think I can do it again.
Will Rogers never met me.
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I think you need to find a suitably tactful way to say 'if you think money will motivate me, why aren't you paying me what I'm worth?'.
I really like the way you phrased that, Bob. Thank you! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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You're obviously daft, or possibly Irish. Cleaning my desk, the repository of every piece of paper or hardware that no one in the company can understand or deal with for 8 years, is not a 30 minute task. It's been days, and I'm not half done. One thing I've already noticed, though, is that before, if someone needed a piece of information, I could lay hands on it in seconds. Now I have no idea where to begin looking for it.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Much to my surprise, I've actually had head hunters calling me lately. I've put them off because I really like the job I have, but I don't know if I can afford to do so any longer. The job is great, but the pay is lousy, and I can't figure out why. Every job I've had in my life, I got raises when no one else did, I got promotions when there were no spots open on the org chart... This one started off wrong, because they hired me to do something I can do, but they didn't really need - database management and computer maintenance. What they learned was that I have far more valuable skills, but having started at a ridiculously low rate of pay, I have trouble getting management to adjust it upwards to a more reasonable range. I can well believe that you "hold your own" against the young ones; we don't have any young ones. There is no one able to take my place when I do retire. That's sad. I'd love to have a young tribal member with a technical degree to train to take my place when I go, or die at my desk. Even younger engineers I encounter when dealing with vendors and sales support people lack the strong technical knowledge that we had to acquire in college and our early years of employment. When we go, there's going to be a huge recession, for lack of ability in the market.
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
lack the strong technical knowledge that we had to acquire in college and our early years of employment
True. I studied CS and maths yonks ago and the transition from theoretical to practical required decks of punched cards and visits to computer installations, like the big puppies you'd find housing ICL and IBM/360 mainframes. I learned a lot from those visits and we'd discuss them back in the lecture hall. A colleague of mine had little respect for apprentices going into engineering straight from college. They had this attitude of being all-knowing while continually moaning about how little they got paid. They wanted senior management pay for tea-boy duties. It was no wonder then, he and other team members would once in a while rig up a capacitor under their desk and discharge it with an almighty bang, thus scaring the crap out of the hapless apprentice. :)
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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Work on your interview skills... that's really hard for us engineers as we don't tend to be very sensitive to people skills, but it's worth learning. Your salary is a bit like mine. According to the US BLS, my current salary is just below the 2nd percentile for Arizona. It would take a 50% raise to get me to the 50th percentile. I can't make too many waves, as I really can't afford to be unemployed again. I've been laid off for many years twice, lost everything, and recovered. But I don't think I can do it again.
Will Rogers never met me.
During an interview, I have a bad habit of foot in mouth. I want to say one thing but it comes out wrong. By-the-way I use to work with a guy named Roger Wright, whom I think was older than us.
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During an interview, I have a bad habit of foot in mouth. I want to say one thing but it comes out wrong. By-the-way I use to work with a guy named Roger Wright, whom I think was older than us.
You never know... Where have you worked? My name's not terribly common, but there's more than one of us. :)
Will Rogers never met me.