Europe eight back Bush on Iraq
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OCid wrote: Don’t you think the fact they want to impose by the brutal force their objectives is a kind of fascism? No. Fascism implies a dictatorship and while I don't know much about Spanish politics, I don't think that applies to the US/UK stance on the war. In fact it applies much more strongly to Saddam which is why I was surprised by the choice of word. I also don't believe in this War for Oil conspiracy theory being banded about. The oil in Iraq is relevant in many ways * Oil is how Iraq has the money to fund terrorism and a WMD program. * Oil is the reason Bush is more aware of Iraq than he seemingly is of the rest of the world. * Oil is almost certainly the reason France and Russia are so resistant to the talk of war. However, that doesn't make it the only reason for a war, nor does it make the war unjust. OCid wrote: They already said they don't care what the rest of the world thinks, they will attack. Yeah, I know, and this was a diplomatic error of the first order. Not only that, but the US administration continues to act that way. However, I'm sure it was made with the best intentions, with a feeling of disbelief that the rest of the world didn't understand automatially that the US are the good guys and that they didn't need to prove anything. Bush clearly doesn't understand how most of the world thinks, but that still doesn't preclude the concept that he is actually pushing against Iraq for all the right reasons. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Well said Paul. :rose: Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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Hi! >>And those countries are proud to be European! Shame on them!<< >>to support US in his fascist attack to Iraq<< Well, my country (Slovak Republic, Central Europe) also decide to support USA with regards to this. Maybe I am a stupid (or idealist) but I'm proud about this. It was good decision, in my opinion. Why I think so? Facts: Iraq regime clearly support terrorism (money dotations for families of Palestinian terrorists who died in suicide attacks, very close relations with some other terrorist organizations, ...). Iraq regime really hate USA. Iraq had in past no small amount of biological, chemical weapons, and today's nobody knows what happens with these weapons. These are undisputed facts. Aren't these? What USA is trying is to be sure that these very dangerous weapons wouldn't be used in another terrorist's attack against USA. I think that USA had right to defend our own country and our peoples, or have not? btw, if Iraq really do not have biological, chemical weapons anymore, as they claims, why they just do not show evidence that they destroy these weapons, or that these weapons aren't usable anymore? USA then wouldn't have any solid arguments. Just fact that OSN inspectors do not found anything do not means that these weapons do not exists nor mean that these weapons do not belongs to terrorist already. I just my opinion. SlavoF "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." --Confucius
Slavo Furman wrote: Well, my country (Slovak Republic, Central Europe) also decide to support USA with regards to this. Maybe I am a stupid (or idealist) but I'm proud about this. It was good decision, in my opinion. Of course, if it lands home we all like it. What is the deal for your country this time? We need to know to see if it is worth a single Iraqi's life. Best regards, Paul. Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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the leaders of EU members Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Denmark and applicants Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, Oh good. Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world, except for Israel and all the Arab countries. :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: Oh good. Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world, except for Israel and all the Arab countries. Nice generalisation, sah! :salutes: ;P Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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Marc Clifton wrote: Oh good. Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world, except for Israel and all the Arab countries. Nice generalisation, sah! :salutes: ;P Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Sometimes I get rather lathered :) by the whole thing. And I'm really pissed at Bush right now about several things, not to mention $15B aid for AIDS in Africa when we have our own domestic problems. Like teachers getting paid piss poor wages. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Sometimes I get rather lathered :) by the whole thing. And I'm really pissed at Bush right now about several things, not to mention $15B aid for AIDS in Africa when we have our own domestic problems. Like teachers getting paid piss poor wages. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: Sometimes I get rather lathered by the whole thing. Don't worry, Marc, I understand. I just don't think I've ever seen someone manage to insult so many people in one sentence without any backup argument. It takes a certain skill to do that :-D. Just thought I'd use a bit of humour to bring you back down again. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/sprj.irq.european.leaders/index.html[^] And those countries are proud to be European! :-( Shame on them! In my opinion, Spain (president Aznar) is behaving like a little dog, he just does what BB (Bush/Blair) order. I’m considering about renouncing my nationality (if that were possible). At least we still have Germany and France!
OCid wrote: At least we still have Germany and France Yes, it is interesting that out of the possible countries that could support the US the two that didn't are the most stable and least in need of US support. The rest need all the economic help they can get. But it does not matter to the supporters because all they care about is seeing the leaders showing support, they don't give a rats ass that the actual citizens of the country in question do not support their leaders decision.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRoger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!
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the leaders of EU members Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Denmark and applicants Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, Oh good. Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world, except for Israel and all the Arab countries. :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaOi! :mad: Most Arab countries are definitely not screwed up at all. Old Simon HB9DRV
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OCid wrote: At least we still have Germany and France Yes, it is interesting that out of the possible countries that could support the US the two that didn't are the most stable and least in need of US support. The rest need all the economic help they can get. But it does not matter to the supporters because all they care about is seeing the leaders showing support, they don't give a rats ass that the actual citizens of the country in question do not support their leaders decision.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRoger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!
Paul Watson wrote: they don't give a rats ass that the actual citizens of the country in question do not support their leaders decision. Sometimes I wish people had more "immediate control" on the decisions that their country made. Waiting for the next elections doesn't cut it. By that time most people forget what happened 3-4 years ago, and cast their votes based on more recent happenings. I wish I had a solution. :(
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/sprj.irq.european.leaders/index.html[^] And those countries are proud to be European! :-( Shame on them! In my opinion, Spain (president Aznar) is behaving like a little dog, he just does what BB (Bush/Blair) order. I’m considering about renouncing my nationality (if that were possible). At least we still have Germany and France!
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OCid wrote: Don’t you think the fact they want to impose by the brutal force their objectives is a kind of fascism? No. Fascism implies a dictatorship and while I don't know much about Spanish politics, I don't think that applies to the US/UK stance on the war. In fact it applies much more strongly to Saddam which is why I was surprised by the choice of word. I also don't believe in this War for Oil conspiracy theory being banded about. The oil in Iraq is relevant in many ways * Oil is how Iraq has the money to fund terrorism and a WMD program. * Oil is the reason Bush is more aware of Iraq than he seemingly is of the rest of the world. * Oil is almost certainly the reason France and Russia are so resistant to the talk of war. However, that doesn't make it the only reason for a war, nor does it make the war unjust. OCid wrote: They already said they don't care what the rest of the world thinks, they will attack. Yeah, I know, and this was a diplomatic error of the first order. Not only that, but the US administration continues to act that way. However, I'm sure it was made with the best intentions, with a feeling of disbelief that the rest of the world didn't understand automatially that the US are the good guys and that they didn't need to prove anything. Bush clearly doesn't understand how most of the world thinks, but that still doesn't preclude the concept that he is actually pushing against Iraq for all the right reasons. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Paul Riley wrote: I also don't believe in this War for Oil conspiracy theory being banded about. The oil in Iraq is relevant in many ways * Oil is how Iraq has the money to fund terrorism and a WMD program. * Oil is the reason Bush is more aware of Iraq than he seemingly is of the rest of the world. * Oil is almost certainly the reason France and Russia are so resistant to the talk of war. Thank you for an intelligent statement on this. The constant mantra that the US only wants Iraq's oil is very tiresome and foolishly inaccurate. If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia. A five:rose:. The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause. - Eric Hoffer
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OCid wrote: In short, he’s deciding to support US in his fascist attack to Iraq Facist? Strong word to choose with little basis that I can see. 8 Euro nations backing a fascist war seems slightly unlikely to me. OCid wrote: without consulting our parlament Without consulting them at all? That would just be wrong, I'll grant you that. However, I've heard people say the same thing over here and it's not strictly true. OCid wrote: he is so stupid that he believes he will get something back from US (for example, more support to combat the ETA terrorism) Has he said that? I too will be surprised if that support ever comes. Bush has less than 6 years left and I suspect there will always be more worrying terrorists to deal with. The next president will owe you nothing. One of my irritations, I admit, with the war on terror is the distinction between different types of terrorism. However, I still fail to believe that so many governments would be willing to go against the apparent public opinion across Europe without believing that they have SOME kind of evidence that Iraq has committed a material breach of resolution 1441, SOMETHING that can convince their people that the cause was just before they next have to face an election. I could be wrong, time will tell. But as convincing as Blair can be at times, I doubt he could single-handedly sell a war to most of Europe just by handing out empty second-hand promises. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Paul Riley wrote: Facist? Strong word to choose with little basis that I can see. This is not a facist attack, it's much simpler than that. It's It's an economical attack. There are many countries in the World which supports terrorism. For example, Iran is clearly suspected of having planned two terrorists attacks in Argentina during past years. There are also many other bad guys governing countries. Have you ever wondered what is happening in Africa? So, if there are many Saddams in the World, what's the big deal with Iraq? There is one simple reason: Iraq has the second biggest oil reserves of the World. Controlling Iraq means controlling oil reserves. Take a look at: http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,882517,00.html
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Sometimes I get rather lathered :) by the whole thing. And I'm really pissed at Bush right now about several things, not to mention $15B aid for AIDS in Africa when we have our own domestic problems. Like teachers getting paid piss poor wages. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: And I'm really pissed at Bush right now about several things, not to mention $15B aid for AIDS in Africa when we have our own domestic problems. Like teachers getting paid piss poor wages. Not the fed's problem, and should not be it's domain IMO. I don't know about where you live, but were I do (and in all other parts of the US that I have lived) teacher's pay comes out of local budgets funded by property tax and sometimes sales tax. Take the issue up with your county school board, state legislature and governor. they hold the purse strings, not Bush.;) Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/sprj.irq.european.leaders/index.html[^] And those countries are proud to be European! :-( Shame on them! In my opinion, Spain (president Aznar) is behaving like a little dog, he just does what BB (Bush/Blair) order. I’m considering about renouncing my nationality (if that were possible). At least we still have Germany and France!
Hi, I live in Germany and the majority of people that I talk to clearly oppose a war against Iraq. However, this is a very difficult situation and this is clearly no black or white situation. Some of the points that I think are important are: - Saddam Hussein is clearly not a good person. He rules by terror and terror alone. Over the years Iraqi people have been kept ignorant and oppressed by the tyrant. Also, I think it is not in the interest of western countries also to help these countries become self-reliant and raise the level of education and liberty. It works well for the world oil market that the middle eastern people are kept ignorant. Sad state of affairs. - After Saddam, then what? Most of the people are concerned that US wants to wage this war just for the oil. US has the task to prove otherwise. Will the people be able to have a (maybe UN administered) election. In my opinion, there is nothing better than a good educational system to fight terroism. Sure, it will take 20 years but it is a better solution. War tends to produce more terrorists. Basically, what about stabilizing Iraq and bringing true liberty to them. Oh well, gotta get back to work. Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
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Marc Clifton wrote: And I'm really pissed at Bush right now about several things, not to mention $15B aid for AIDS in Africa when we have our own domestic problems. Like teachers getting paid piss poor wages. Not the fed's problem, and should not be it's domain IMO. I don't know about where you live, but were I do (and in all other parts of the US that I have lived) teacher's pay comes out of local budgets funded by property tax and sometimes sales tax. Take the issue up with your county school board, state legislature and governor. they hold the purse strings, not Bush.;) Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
Not the fed's problem, and should not be it's domain IMO. I don't know about where you live, but were I do (and in all other parts of the US that I have lived) teacher's pay comes out of local budgets funded by property tax and sometimes sales tax. Take the issue up with your county school board, state legislature and governor. they hold the purse strings, not Bush. Oh, I agree! But the Fed does make it their problem, by enforcing testing requirements, setting educational standards, etc. And when the Fed mandates states develop homeland security programs, but doesn't help pay for them, where do you think the state is going to take the money from? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Paul Riley wrote: Facist? Strong word to choose with little basis that I can see. This is not a facist attack, it's much simpler than that. It's It's an economical attack. There are many countries in the World which supports terrorism. For example, Iran is clearly suspected of having planned two terrorists attacks in Argentina during past years. There are also many other bad guys governing countries. Have you ever wondered what is happening in Africa? So, if there are many Saddams in the World, what's the big deal with Iraq? There is one simple reason: Iraq has the second biggest oil reserves of the World. Controlling Iraq means controlling oil reserves. Take a look at: http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,882517,00.html
Gabriel 2 wrote: There are many countries in the World which supports terrorism. For example, Iran is clearly suspected of having planned two terrorists attacks in Argentina during past years. Sure. And don't think that people aren't already gathering evidence for that one. Gabriel 2 wrote: So, if there are many Saddams in the World, what's the big deal with Iraq? Iraq is breaking more UN resolutions than anyone else. Logic would have dictated that this was the one they were going to get through the UN easily to build momentum as a warning to other nations. However, it turned out that logic had little to do with it :-D. Gabriel 2 wrote: There is one simple reason: Iraq has the second biggest oil reserves of the World And Saudi has the biggest, and it's very likely that they support terrorists. Your logic doesn't hold water. The choice of one target over another is entirely diplomatic. Very few Arab nations hold any love for Saddam and even less European nations. How many countries are truly willing to stand up to the US over someone like that? The French and Germans may be bearing their teeth across the Atlantic but when it comes to the crunch, will they stand alone against the US? I doubt it. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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Paul Riley wrote: I also don't believe in this War for Oil conspiracy theory being banded about. The oil in Iraq is relevant in many ways * Oil is how Iraq has the money to fund terrorism and a WMD program. * Oil is the reason Bush is more aware of Iraq than he seemingly is of the rest of the world. * Oil is almost certainly the reason France and Russia are so resistant to the talk of war. Thank you for an intelligent statement on this. The constant mantra that the US only wants Iraq's oil is very tiresome and foolishly inaccurate. If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia. A five:rose:. The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause. - Eric Hoffer
Rob Graham wrote: Thank you for an intelligent statement on this. The constant mantra that the US only wants Iraq's oil is very tiresome and foolishly inaccurate. Foolishly? Instead of insulting, put in clear language the reasons why innocent Iraqis are going to be killed. if there is no reason, those claiming the oil factor must be right - for one thing they have a reson. Rob Graham wrote: If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia. Sorry, you can't. Best regards, Paul. Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Hi, I live in Germany and the majority of people that I talk to clearly oppose a war against Iraq. However, this is a very difficult situation and this is clearly no black or white situation. Some of the points that I think are important are: - Saddam Hussein is clearly not a good person. He rules by terror and terror alone. Over the years Iraqi people have been kept ignorant and oppressed by the tyrant. Also, I think it is not in the interest of western countries also to help these countries become self-reliant and raise the level of education and liberty. It works well for the world oil market that the middle eastern people are kept ignorant. Sad state of affairs. - After Saddam, then what? Most of the people are concerned that US wants to wage this war just for the oil. US has the task to prove otherwise. Will the people be able to have a (maybe UN administered) election. In my opinion, there is nothing better than a good educational system to fight terroism. Sure, it will take 20 years but it is a better solution. War tends to produce more terrorists. Basically, what about stabilizing Iraq and bringing true liberty to them. Oh well, gotta get back to work. Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
pankajdaga wrote: Basically, what about stabilizing Iraq and bringing true liberty to them. This will be the real test to justify this war. The West created Iraq but wanted to control it, they overthrew the Western-installed leader for one of their own, the West overthrew him for another, and so on. Only one leader has left his tenure alive in the last 100 years. It's a bloody and vicious history and it's mostly our own fault. But that doesn't make the status quo a good thing, it only means we don't want to make the same mistakes again. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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Hi! >>And those countries are proud to be European! Shame on them!<< >>to support US in his fascist attack to Iraq<< Well, my country (Slovak Republic, Central Europe) also decide to support USA with regards to this. Maybe I am a stupid (or idealist) but I'm proud about this. It was good decision, in my opinion. Why I think so? Facts: Iraq regime clearly support terrorism (money dotations for families of Palestinian terrorists who died in suicide attacks, very close relations with some other terrorist organizations, ...). Iraq regime really hate USA. Iraq had in past no small amount of biological, chemical weapons, and today's nobody knows what happens with these weapons. These are undisputed facts. Aren't these? What USA is trying is to be sure that these very dangerous weapons wouldn't be used in another terrorist's attack against USA. I think that USA had right to defend our own country and our peoples, or have not? btw, if Iraq really do not have biological, chemical weapons anymore, as they claims, why they just do not show evidence that they destroy these weapons, or that these weapons aren't usable anymore? USA then wouldn't have any solid arguments. Just fact that OSN inspectors do not found anything do not means that these weapons do not exists nor mean that these weapons do not belongs to terrorist already. I just my opinion. SlavoF "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." --Confucius
US has a known history of terrorist support (see other reply) US hates Iraq US has no small amounts of biological, chemical, nuclear weapons, and has proven that they are willing to use them. So should the Iraq be allowed to attack the US, to make sure their weapons are not used in an attack on Iraq? Just my opinion.
It's a royal pain to watch a sex drugs and rock'n'roll design decay into an aids crack and techno implementation [sighist] [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
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Not the fed's problem, and should not be it's domain IMO. I don't know about where you live, but were I do (and in all other parts of the US that I have lived) teacher's pay comes out of local budgets funded by property tax and sometimes sales tax. Take the issue up with your county school board, state legislature and governor. they hold the purse strings, not Bush. Oh, I agree! But the Fed does make it their problem, by enforcing testing requirements, setting educational standards, etc. And when the Fed mandates states develop homeland security programs, but doesn't help pay for them, where do you think the state is going to take the money from? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: But the Fed does make it their problem, by enforcing testing requirements, setting educational standards, etc. Only if the state accepts Federal funding. Mike
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Gabriel 2 wrote: There are many countries in the World which supports terrorism. For example, Iran is clearly suspected of having planned two terrorists attacks in Argentina during past years. Sure. And don't think that people aren't already gathering evidence for that one. Gabriel 2 wrote: So, if there are many Saddams in the World, what's the big deal with Iraq? Iraq is breaking more UN resolutions than anyone else. Logic would have dictated that this was the one they were going to get through the UN easily to build momentum as a warning to other nations. However, it turned out that logic had little to do with it :-D. Gabriel 2 wrote: There is one simple reason: Iraq has the second biggest oil reserves of the World And Saudi has the biggest, and it's very likely that they support terrorists. Your logic doesn't hold water. The choice of one target over another is entirely diplomatic. Very few Arab nations hold any love for Saddam and even less European nations. How many countries are truly willing to stand up to the US over someone like that? The French and Germans may be bearing their teeth across the Atlantic but when it comes to the crunch, will they stand alone against the US? I doubt it. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Paul Riley wrote: Sure. And don't think that people aren't already gathering evidence for that one. I hope someone is gathering the USA sponsored terroism too evidence too. Paul Riley wrote: And Saudi has the biggest, and it's very likely that they support terrorists. Your logic doesn't hold water. ...and yours does not. Saudi is with the US and Iraq is not and with Russia progressing with its inter-continental oil pipeline plans the US will have to kill Iraqis to stop it. Paul Riley wrote: The choice of one target over another is entirely diplomatic. Please put it well, the choice of which people to kill is diplomatic? Paul Riley wrote: How many countries are truly willing to stand up to the US over someone like that? None. However, those willing to share the profit you will naturally find the British and the Australians, not forgeting the poor European countries. Paul Riley wrote: The French and Germans may be bearing their teeth across the Atlantic but when it comes to the crunch, will they stand alone against the US? I doubt it. Do they have to? they are matured enough. Best regards, Paul. Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.