Europe eight back Bush on Iraq
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/sprj.irq.european.leaders/index.html[^] And those countries are proud to be European! :-( Shame on them! In my opinion, Spain (president Aznar) is behaving like a little dog, he just does what BB (Bush/Blair) order. I’m considering about renouncing my nationality (if that were possible). At least we still have Germany and France!
OCid wrote: At least we still have Germany and France! More than that.. EU Parliament Opposes U.S. Unilateral Move on Iraq
Thu January 30, 2003 09:35 AM ET BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - The European Parliament said on Thursday that Iraq's behavior toward U.N. arms inspectors did not justify military action and urged the United States to avoid any unilateral use of force. In a non-binding resolution reflecting unease in Europe at the prospect of war, EU lawmakers declared: "Breaches of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 currently identified by the inspectors with regard to weapons of mass destruction do not justify military action." -
Paul Riley wrote: I also don't believe in this War for Oil conspiracy theory being banded about. The oil in Iraq is relevant in many ways * Oil is how Iraq has the money to fund terrorism and a WMD program. * Oil is the reason Bush is more aware of Iraq than he seemingly is of the rest of the world. * Oil is almost certainly the reason France and Russia are so resistant to the talk of war. Thank you for an intelligent statement on this. The constant mantra that the US only wants Iraq's oil is very tiresome and foolishly inaccurate. If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia. A five:rose:. The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause. - Eric Hoffer
Rob Graham wrote: If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia Who said US is not assaulting Venezuela? You surely know that Venezuela is close to suffer a civil war … I can’t demonstrate it, but I’m sure US has something to do with Venezuela’s current situation.
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the leaders of EU members Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Denmark and applicants Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, Oh good. Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world, except for Israel and all the Arab countries. :mad: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Paul Riley wrote: the innocent Iraqis that survive ..in other words, the innocent Iraqis that won't get killed by the bombing? How sweet?
Fazlul Kabir wrote: ..in other words, the innocent Iraqis that won't get killed by the bombing? How sweet? I never said it would be pretty :(, but I'm more sure that the US will keep civilian casualties to a minimum than I am that Iraq would afford us the same courtesy given the chance. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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Rob Graham wrote: If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia Who said US is not assaulting Venezuela? You surely know that Venezuela is close to suffer a civil war … I can’t demonstrate it, but I’m sure US has something to do with Venezuela’s current situation.
OCid wrote: I’m sure US has something to do with Venezuela’s current situation. Yes, we bailed them out the last time they nearly went bankrupt (which they never repaid), instead of letting their economy and government collapse under the weight of their incompetence. We'll probably do so again, just because we don't want the good people of Venzuela to suffer for the stupidity of their leaders. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
Marc Clifton wrote: Countries that represent the most emotionally and psychologically screwed up people in the whole world what you mean?:confused:
In general, I was being sarcastic and flippant. I don't think, except for Britain, that these countries matter much in the "world opinion" (or maybe just mine!). It seems more like a joke to have these eight countries sign this document--several of them still haven't really resolved the issues with their own governments and political/religious parties. What kind of military contribution is Poland going to make? Or humanitarian? It's all just political maneuvering. In specific, and I'll take ONE example: never have I seen more chronically psychologically ill people than in Denmark. (Of course, maybe here in the US we just hide it, what with half the population being on Prozac). Maybe I met only a certain types of people, but they all seemed to constantly complain of some ailment or other, but with no sign of visible problem. And wierd family behaviors. Really disfunctional, in my opinion. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Marc Clifton wrote: Sometimes I get rather lathered by the whole thing. Don't worry, Marc, I understand. I just don't think I've ever seen someone manage to insult so many people in one sentence without any backup argument. It takes a certain skill to do that :-D. Just thought I'd use a bit of humour to bring you back down again. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
That sure got me laughing! I only regret leaving out a few other choice countries! :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Marc Clifton wrote: But the Fed does make it their problem, by enforcing testing requirements, setting educational standards, etc. Only if the state accepts Federal funding. Mike
I shall plead ignorance--how many states do NOT except Federal funding. I heard that even Montana was going to accept fed funds for highways, which has a requirement of speed limit laws attached to it. It seems the fed has states by the balls--you want funding??? then play by our rules. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
Rob Graham wrote: If oil were the target, we would intercede militarily in Venezuela, which supplies far more of our imports, is closer, is a lot softer target, and seems to be generally ignored by Europe and Asia Who said US is not assaulting Venezuela? You surely know that Venezuela is close to suffer a civil war … I can’t demonstrate it, but I’m sure US has something to do with Venezuela’s current situation.
Yeah, we sent Giraldo rivera and Jimmy Carter down there to stir up trouble. Probably send Jesse Jackson next... :-D Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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That sure got me laughing! I only regret leaving out a few other choice countries! :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: I only regret leaving out a few other choice countries! Like the US? :ducks and runs: Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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I shall plead ignorance--how many states do NOT except Federal funding. I heard that even Montana was going to accept fed funds for highways, which has a requirement of speed limit laws attached to it. It seems the fed has states by the balls--you want funding??? then play by our rules. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: how many states do NOT except Federal funding Probably not many, if any - but it is the price a state pays. Marc Clifton wrote: It seems the fed has states by the balls--you want funding??? then play by our rules. Well, ya. But it is still under our (citizens) control. Skeptical? The way to change it is to push for as many tax cuts as possible. The less tax dollars that go to DC, the fewer opportunities for legislation that interferes with states' rights. The federal government has been invited into our lives by the constant pandering of locally elected politicians who buy their re-elections by pushing federal legislation that brings federal dollars back into their districts or states. Reduce the amount of dollars that go to Washington DC and you'll naturally reduce interference with states rights. Mike
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Not the fed's problem, and should not be it's domain IMO. I don't know about where you live, but were I do (and in all other parts of the US that I have lived) teacher's pay comes out of local budgets funded by property tax and sometimes sales tax. Take the issue up with your county school board, state legislature and governor. they hold the purse strings, not Bush. Oh, I agree! But the Fed does make it their problem, by enforcing testing requirements, setting educational standards, etc. And when the Fed mandates states develop homeland security programs, but doesn't help pay for them, where do you think the state is going to take the money from? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: And when the Fed mandates states develop homeland security programs, but doesn't help pay for them, where do you think the state is going to take the money from? IMO the states should treat their educational budgets as inviolate, and among their top priorties. If they must raise taxes (income/salses/etc.) to pay for HS demands, so be it. I would just as soon the Federal Govt. kept their funds (and control) out of it. Have never seen anything the Federal Bureaucracy has done well. A few state govt's have at least had some (albeit too few) limited successes. :) Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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peterchen wrote: US has a known history of terrorist support (see other reply) Hindsight is 20/20. peterchen wrote: US hates Iraq Saddam, not Iraq. peterchen wrote: US has no small amounts of biological, chemical, nuclear weapons, and has proven that they are willing to use them. To my knowledge, we have never used biological or chemical agents in a theater of operations. Nuclear was 60 years ago and in different circumstances. Yes we are willing to use them, in self defense. The US has been destroying its stockpiles of WMDs. We will keep some nukes but only as deterants.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *just a few: GUATEMALA/l966-67/Covert/Green Berets intervene against rebels OMAN/l970/Covert/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene in Omani civil war. CHILE/1973/Covert/CIA funds and backs coup ousts democratically-elected Marxist president and installs military dictatorship. EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Covert/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war They do technically fit my definitions of terrorism. Your milage may differ. Might even be some are fake. Still, the list is longer, and not all of them are fake. Does every individual US American hate Saddam? Does every individual US American hate every individual Iraqui? Does only Saddam hate the US? I am not aware of the US using biological weapons. "Agent Orange" fits *my* definition of a chemical warfare. Circumstances: The other new report that the often quoted "gassing of the kurds" was while iraq was fighting Iran, both sides used chemical weapons, and the curds got caught inbetween. I'm not talking about these acts being justified or not. I don't claim Bush == Saddam. Just that: they fit the criteria set by the poster.
It's a royal pain to watch a sex drugs and rock'n'roll design decay into an aids crack and techno implementation [sighist] [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: ..in other words, the innocent Iraqis that won't get killed by the bombing? How sweet? I never said it would be pretty :(, but I'm more sure that the US will keep civilian casualties to a minimum than I am that Iraq would afford us the same courtesy given the chance. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Sure Saddam is a bad guy, but there are other even worse guys in that part of the world too. If containment worked for the last ten years, why is the rush for this scheduled killing?
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Sure Saddam is a bad guy, but there are other even worse guys in that part of the world too. If containment worked for the last ten years, why is the rush for this scheduled killing?
Fazlul Kabir wrote: If containment worked for the last ten years, why is the rush for this scheduled killing? Containment hasn't worked, he kicked the UN inspectors out 4/5 years ago and no one had the balls to do anything about it until Sept 11 shocked some of the world into acting. A bit of pressure forced him to let them back in again but he's still obstructing any investigation; imagine what a lot of pressure will achieve. War is still avoidable. If Saddam started cooperating and disarming then there would be no argument for fast action, Bushes coalition and his already diminished public support would fall apart in an instant. Fazlul Kabir wrote: Sure Saddam is a bad guy, but there are other even worse guys in that part of the world too. Worse? Who? As bad, certainly. And in other parts of the world too. But as I said elsewhere, Saddam is the one with money to fund a WMD program, the connections to sell such weapons to widespread terrorist organisations, the demonstrated lack of conscience to do it, and the lowest support across the world (in particular the Arab world - Arafat is more popular than Hussein!). If he is allowed to destroy the credibility of the UN and the US, you don't think things will get a whole lot worse across the board? So why not him? Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
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just a few: GUATEMALA/l966-67/Covert/Green Berets intervene against rebels OMAN/l970/Covert/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene in Omani civil war. CHILE/1973/Covert/CIA funds and backs coup ousts democratically-elected Marxist president and installs military dictatorship. EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Covert/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war They do technically fit my definitions of terrorism. Your milage may differ. Might even be some are fake. Still, the list is longer, and not all of them are fake. Does every individual US American hate Saddam? Does every individual US American hate every individual Iraqui? Does only Saddam hate the US? I am not aware of the US using biological weapons. "Agent Orange" fits *my* definition of a chemical warfare. Circumstances: The other new report that the often quoted "gassing of the kurds" was while iraq was fighting Iran, both sides used chemical weapons, and the curds got caught inbetween. I'm not talking about these acts being justified or not. I don't claim Bush == Saddam. Just that: they fit the criteria set by the poster.
It's a royal pain to watch a sex drugs and rock'n'roll design decay into an aids crack and techno implementation [sighist] [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
peterchen wrote: They do technically fit my definitions of terrorism. Your milage may differ. Might even be some are fake. Still, the list is longer, and not all of them are fake. Your definition of terrorism is totally wacked! WAR (military actions by and against government entities) != TERRORISM peterchen wrote: "Agent Orange" fits *my* definition of a chemical warfare.
To the best of my knowledge, AO was used as a defoliator and not directly against civilians or other military targets.Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Marc Clifton wrote: I only regret leaving out a few other choice countries! Like the US? :ducks and runs: Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Like the US? Bingo! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka -
In general, I was being sarcastic and flippant. I don't think, except for Britain, that these countries matter much in the "world opinion" (or maybe just mine!). It seems more like a joke to have these eight countries sign this document--several of them still haven't really resolved the issues with their own governments and political/religious parties. What kind of military contribution is Poland going to make? Or humanitarian? It's all just political maneuvering. In specific, and I'll take ONE example: never have I seen more chronically psychologically ill people than in Denmark. (Of course, maybe here in the US we just hide it, what with half the population being on Prozac). Maybe I met only a certain types of people, but they all seemed to constantly complain of some ailment or other, but with no sign of visible problem. And wierd family behaviors. Really disfunctional, in my opinion. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka MuraokaMarc Clifton wrote: I don't think, except for Britain, that these countries matter much in the "world opinion" (or maybe just mine!). I should point out that what your saying smacks a great deal of unilateralism - except in this case it's the unilateralism of the "upper" countries like France and Germany. Funny how the US is accused of unilateralism if it doesn't pay attention to what other countries say, but other when France and Germany do it (i.e. when they ignore the opinions of "lesser" countries) - well, they're not being unilateralist? Sounds to me like just a variation on a theme - i.e. who is allowed to make decisions. It does ring a little hollow that countries like France and Germany want to be included in the decision-making process, but then readily ignore the opinions of the "lesser" countries. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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peterchen wrote: They do technically fit my definitions of terrorism. Your milage may differ. Might even be some are fake. Still, the list is longer, and not all of them are fake. Your definition of terrorism is totally wacked! WAR (military actions by and against government entities) != TERRORISM peterchen wrote: "Agent Orange" fits *my* definition of a chemical warfare.
To the best of my knowledge, AO was used as a defoliator and not directly against civilians or other military targets.Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *military acts without declaring war. attacking a weak point to create highest effect with least effort. Sounds pretty terroristic to me. Unless, of course, you consider terrorism only when targetting only civilians and bystanders, instead of "the enemy" directly. At least german history doesn't use this definition. AO was liekly not been used against persons. But did anyone care if there *were* people where the US "defoliated"? (Could they know? That was the whole point of the thing) And, in my eyes, it's still chemical warfare. Destroying a potential hideout is a classic technique of war, and it was done by chemical means.
It's a royal pain to watch a sex drugs and rock'n'roll design decay into an aids crack and techno implementation [sighist] [Agile Programming] [doxygen]