Honesty doesn't pay

Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: What good is morality if there is no God? Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Jason Henderson wrote: On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Jason Henderson

Paul Riley wrote: Are you serious??? If you didn't believe there was a god, you would go around doing whatever you please, not whatever you know is the right thing to do? Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I believe that he has given us our morals. They are ingrained in our hearts from day one. Everyone knows right from wrong but not everyone chooses to recognize it. Paul Riley wrote: And on whose authority are your morals established? Certainly you haven't asked God personally, so you trust in the church to dictate your morality? Is the church not an authority of man? Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Paul Riley wrote: What??? Okay, Jason, you've lost me completely. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't believe in god is naturally immoral because you not only believe but KNOW there is a god? Very Christian of you. Like I said, that was my $.02. Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. Therefore, you aren't being as honest as you may think. Its your choice to believe in God or not, I'm just telling you why I think it pays to be honest based on my belief. If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. ;)

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Paul Watson

Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou".

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Roger Wright wrote: Using a feather is kinky; using the whole chicken is perverted!

benjymous

Marc Clifton wrote: And you know what really pisses me off? My girlfriend makes $8/hr at a daycare taking care of precious life Yeah, my Mum works in a Creche, and earns less than she would get stacking shelves in a supermarket. That's just plain criminal, if you ask me -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!

Jason Henderson

Paul Watson wrote: Sounds like you are having a cynical day yourself. You are not normally this "holier than thou". Check my response to Paul R. I really wasn't trying to be "holier than thou". When you get too haughty, it tends to drive people away. Sometimes I do get frustrated and want to shout at people, "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?" Sorry if I get that way sometimes.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I understand that and respect your right to believe. However, what you seemed to be implying that every time you do something "right", you're doing it out of fear, rather than because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. That's a weird way of looking at it to me. In my thinking, I don't honestly care whether there is a god or not because I do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. If it turns out I was wrong all along then I WILL laugh and apologise and hope that HE doesn't look too darkly on me for my lack of faith but rather look well on me for my humble good deeds, but that sure as hell isn't why I try to do the right thing. Jason Henderson wrote: Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Assuming you believe that. Of course, with translations and interpretations, it becomes about what the church believes and not what the bible actually says. I have nothing against that particularly, just saying that the church is still about the morality of man, just a different group of men. Jason Henderson wrote: Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. But if there isn't a god then you are lying to yourself. But I would never suggest that as I cannot prove or disprove the reality of god, nor can you. Faith is a personal thing, I will not dismiss your faith if you don't dismiss my lack of it. Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. I didn't mean to give that impression, your comments are as welcome as anyone else's. But my lack of faith means that a lecture on doing the right thing just because God wants me to is useless to me. I was just expressing my discomfort with your announcing my immorality purely based on my lack of faith. Or... I find your feelings on my lack of faith disturbing :-D. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again

KaRl

You could say the same thing about taxes. Would they be so high if some didn't try to cheat? I agree with you, honesty doesn't pay, on the contrary, it's might be the best way to get in troubles. However, I hope it doesn't pay only on this World As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

KaRl

Are you honest only because you fear a divine punishment :omg: ? I think it's possible to have moral grounds even for non-believers, it just needs to have some respect for the other human beings. ---- Nice quote, I will try to remember it :)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

It's very freudian, indeed. I wondered if I would see the word "Super-ego" somewhere :-D

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Chris Losinger

Paul Riley wrote: We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy or because of something equally as illegal: collusion and price fixing. http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm[^] but, yeah. it's a losing game, being the honest one. i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, (Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation), by Matt Ridley. It's a nice introduction to game theory, which is exactly what you're describing: honesty often does not pay in the short run, because it's often so easy to cheat and get away with it. -c

Get there first with something patented, proprietary, and broken, then send lawyers after anyone who points out problems. --- Peter Gutmann

Fractals

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid. See, I would say that I only give a fark (love that word) when I start actually feeling stupid, like when being the good guy (or at least trying)doesn't buy me one of those lovely new Land Rovers. :-D But I'm feeling a lot better about it now, thanks to everyone in this conversation [even Jason! :laugh:]. It's not often I look online for advise or reassurance from people that barely know me really but I did feel shitty this morning. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Paul Riley

Roger Wright wrote: I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. Bingo! Right on the mark, Roger. Nothing I can do will convince me that thinking only of myself is a good thing. Therefore I'd (a) not be able to live with myself and (b) probably get caught doing something wrong. Guess I'd better deal with that, huh? :-D Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: I only give a fark (love that word) Me too :-D We should build a statue dedicated to his inventor ..[searching]...Euh...finally, no :) A variation: should we be honnest with dishonest people?

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Paul Riley

Chris Losinger wrote: i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, Looks interesting. I'll add that to my next Amazon order. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: A variation: should we be honnest with dishonest people? Ahh yes, a good question; being a heavy Diplomacy[^] player, this is a discussion I've had many times. In game, I tend to be completely dishonest with completely dishonest players, even when they're dishonest to my benefit. Why? Because they tend to assume you're lying anyway and only get farked off when you tell the truth. In real life, I tend to think yes, until their dishonesty affects me directly and personally. I can be a bitter bastard if you cross me, especially at work, but you have to cross me pretty badly. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: I'll add that to my next Amazon order It must be cool to be rich :rolleyes::laugh:;)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: It must be cool to be rich Hahaaa! About £7 for the UK paperback edition. And I'll tell you now that the day I can't feed my book addiction is the day I turn to the dark-side. Books are essential to me like food is to any person. I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: About £7 for the UK paperback edition. <cynical>:omg:, 10 days of salary for a worker in burkina-faso!</cynical> Paul Riley wrote: I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Same here, I couldn't live without reading :)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: 10 days of salary for a worker in burkina-faso Heheh! Yeah, which is why I don't work in a burkina-faso. (Is that like Taco Bell? ;P) Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time