Why the Low Pay
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I've just been looking through the Jobs Section of the site and have been impressed with the low pay being offered, for Developers. Why do people offer such meagre salaries etc ? Maybe I have got a conversion problem. But if I have to study more than a Plastic Surgeon, And I have more responsiblity than a (P.S) shouldn't I as a developer earn more. But more importantly as my employers have a far greater opportunity to capitalize on my skills ! Or maybe there is something in Supply and Demand ? I'd be interested to hear other thoughts, Regardz Colin Davies Ownguide NZ
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I've just been looking through the Jobs Section of the site and have been impressed with the low pay being offered, for Developers. Why do people offer such meagre salaries etc ? Maybe I have got a conversion problem. But if I have to study more than a Plastic Surgeon, And I have more responsiblity than a (P.S) shouldn't I as a developer earn more. But more importantly as my employers have a far greater opportunity to capitalize on my skills ! Or maybe there is something in Supply and Demand ? I'd be interested to hear other thoughts, Regardz Colin Davies Ownguide NZ
If you look on monster.com and flipdog.com, you'll see the same overall trend. From what I've found out (by actually applying for some of these jobs!) is that they want fresh-out-of-school college kids, or else W2-status (read: legal slave) workers. Both of who they can pay below market rate.
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If you look on monster.com and flipdog.com, you'll see the same overall trend. From what I've found out (by actually applying for some of these jobs!) is that they want fresh-out-of-school college kids, or else W2-status (read: legal slave) workers. Both of who they can pay below market rate.
In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
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In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
I do not think organizing an Union will do much good for software developers. The unions were great for factory workers, but they would ruin us. If we all got paid the same and someone would control how many lines of code per hour we generate, and penalized us for too many or too little, what would become of us? After all software development is not always about howmany lines of code you wrote, but if the task was completed or not.
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In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
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I've just been looking through the Jobs Section of the site and have been impressed with the low pay being offered, for Developers. Why do people offer such meagre salaries etc ? Maybe I have got a conversion problem. But if I have to study more than a Plastic Surgeon, And I have more responsiblity than a (P.S) shouldn't I as a developer earn more. But more importantly as my employers have a far greater opportunity to capitalize on my skills ! Or maybe there is something in Supply and Demand ? I'd be interested to hear other thoughts, Regardz Colin Davies Ownguide NZ
Like any other professional occupation, there are lower and higher paying jobs. I don't think that anyone can assert that in the world of software development, there is a lack of earning power. If you are good, you can command a very lucrative salary. If you are somewhat competent, you can live very comfortably. The kicker is that there are so many people out there that are either (1)not talented at all or (2)don't care enough to learn enough to be a good programmer that make a decent living. Of course any business is going to attempt to pay their employees the least amount possible. There is nothing evil about this... It's a free market. Don't kid yourself about plastic surgeons and your relative importance and responsibility. (1) A plastic surgeon is DOCTOR and must endure a much more brutal training regimen than any software developer ever thought about (2) A software engineer can't accidentally kill someone while doing their (3) A software engineer can't fix rebuild a person's face that was destroyed in a car accident. (4) I can go on for a long time... The bottom line is, software developers are in a unique position. They can float and make a decent living or excel and make a great living... It's all about what the market will bear.
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In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
Check out http://www.programmersguild.org
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Like any other professional occupation, there are lower and higher paying jobs. I don't think that anyone can assert that in the world of software development, there is a lack of earning power. If you are good, you can command a very lucrative salary. If you are somewhat competent, you can live very comfortably. The kicker is that there are so many people out there that are either (1)not talented at all or (2)don't care enough to learn enough to be a good programmer that make a decent living. Of course any business is going to attempt to pay their employees the least amount possible. There is nothing evil about this... It's a free market. Don't kid yourself about plastic surgeons and your relative importance and responsibility. (1) A plastic surgeon is DOCTOR and must endure a much more brutal training regimen than any software developer ever thought about (2) A software engineer can't accidentally kill someone while doing their (3) A software engineer can't fix rebuild a person's face that was destroyed in a car accident. (4) I can go on for a long time... The bottom line is, software developers are in a unique position. They can float and make a decent living or excel and make a great living... It's all about what the market will bear.
Yes, in some ways you are right, ie. the Damaged Face by Accident! BUT: Go to a decent hospital and please Take A Look Around, You sould be able to see many different applications in many different departments, in many different ways Exist that are of Programming Origin! Guess what! The DOCTOR does not program those! Its US PROGRAMMERS! Could you count how many deaths have been when there was no Computer Technology available in the surgeons room? Surely it dropped a lot nowadays! Don't you think so? Computer applications are so deeply used in Hospitals that if I start listing here I would probably end taking up 2GB of Codeproject! ;) All us programmers need is regulating or setting up a society where any willing programmer could join and benefit. Like the Union idea, sure I won't mind being a member if my rights and demand are met by both the Union and the Contractor! What about you? :-D
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You obvously have not been part of a union! Unions will "fight" to raise pay levels, but you as the worker get nothing, since this "raise" goes into your union dues, which is often about 40% of your pay, depending on the union!
Huh? 40%? I'm not sure what unions you have been in... When I was working in retail, the union fees were about 1% (or less?) of my wage... Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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Like any other professional occupation, there are lower and higher paying jobs. I don't think that anyone can assert that in the world of software development, there is a lack of earning power. If you are good, you can command a very lucrative salary. If you are somewhat competent, you can live very comfortably. The kicker is that there are so many people out there that are either (1)not talented at all or (2)don't care enough to learn enough to be a good programmer that make a decent living. Of course any business is going to attempt to pay their employees the least amount possible. There is nothing evil about this... It's a free market. Don't kid yourself about plastic surgeons and your relative importance and responsibility. (1) A plastic surgeon is DOCTOR and must endure a much more brutal training regimen than any software developer ever thought about (2) A software engineer can't accidentally kill someone while doing their (3) A software engineer can't fix rebuild a person's face that was destroyed in a car accident. (4) I can go on for a long time... The bottom line is, software developers are in a unique position. They can float and make a decent living or excel and make a great living... It's all about what the market will bear.
In reponse to your 2nd point, I remember reading in a software engineering text that there was a case where the software in medical instrumentation was buggy, and ended up killing (more than one?) patient by fatal dose of radiation. I have worked on emergency service dispatching software, and if it doesn't work then this too can cause death. If you are doing just some web site, then maybe you are correct in your argument, but I don't believe this is the case for all situtations. And with plastic surgeons, how much of there work is just nose or boob jobs anyway??? Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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Yes, in some ways you are right, ie. the Damaged Face by Accident! BUT: Go to a decent hospital and please Take A Look Around, You sould be able to see many different applications in many different departments, in many different ways Exist that are of Programming Origin! Guess what! The DOCTOR does not program those! Its US PROGRAMMERS! Could you count how many deaths have been when there was no Computer Technology available in the surgeons room? Surely it dropped a lot nowadays! Don't you think so? Computer applications are so deeply used in Hospitals that if I start listing here I would probably end taking up 2GB of Codeproject! ;) All us programmers need is regulating or setting up a society where any willing programmer could join and benefit. Like the Union idea, sure I won't mind being a member if my rights and demand are met by both the Union and the Contractor! What about you? :-D
Entry in the medical professional is tightly controled by the members of that profession. By raising many barriers to entry, they keep the supply of docs low and the demand high. Anyone who has the talent for it can be a software develper. No one ahead of you has pulled up the ladder. Therefore supply of software developers is limited by the number of people who can actually do the job, as opposed to the number who can jump through a set of arbitary hoops. Therefore the supply of developers is higher than the supply of doctors, so the pay is less. Having said that, around here (central Texas, USA), software developers and electrical engineers are about the highest paid group of people after doctors and the top half of the lawyers.
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In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
I doubt you'll see a union for one simple reason. Most developers feel they can negotiate a better salary than a union could. I don't want to cap out my top end just to prop up the low end. Additionally, We can usually get a hefty pay raise just by switching to a new job. I for one don't find the salaries to be all that low. Sure, for entry level they might be, but you can quickly overcome that.
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In every industry there is some sort of Union or Society, but this has never been accomplished with us Programmers! There should be the Progmming Union/Society for us! :) Look at the Interior Designers Society! They got it all fully organized! Maybe as a suggestion to Codeproject to set a poll on this is a good idea, don't you? :cool:
Yikes!!! I cannot think of a worse idea. Lets see.... 1) Raises are based on years of service, not performance .... what a great incentive for talented developers!!! 2) Limit what can be done in a single day.... we cannot make slower workers look bad 3) Go on strike every few years, and pay union dues 4) A promotion is when a person that works above you in your company's complex heirarchy is either run over by a bus or has retired 5) You succeed more when you play the 'political' game rather than work Personally I would change jobs before having to be a member of a union. However if there becomes a point in my life where I want to become a drone, I will gladly join a union.
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Like any other professional occupation, there are lower and higher paying jobs. I don't think that anyone can assert that in the world of software development, there is a lack of earning power. If you are good, you can command a very lucrative salary. If you are somewhat competent, you can live very comfortably. The kicker is that there are so many people out there that are either (1)not talented at all or (2)don't care enough to learn enough to be a good programmer that make a decent living. Of course any business is going to attempt to pay their employees the least amount possible. There is nothing evil about this... It's a free market. Don't kid yourself about plastic surgeons and your relative importance and responsibility. (1) A plastic surgeon is DOCTOR and must endure a much more brutal training regimen than any software developer ever thought about (2) A software engineer can't accidentally kill someone while doing their (3) A software engineer can't fix rebuild a person's face that was destroyed in a car accident. (4) I can go on for a long time... The bottom line is, software developers are in a unique position. They can float and make a decent living or excel and make a great living... It's all about what the market will bear.
A software engineer could write code that is used in situations where people's lives are at stake. What if there had been astronaughts on the first launch of Arianne 5? The launch failure was attributed to a minus not being inserted into a crucial calculation in attitude. Air traffic control software, embedded software in medical equipment. Admittedly though software people do get a chance to test whether what they've done is correct without consequence in every new case. You couldn't argue that a surgeon has that option :)
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Like any other professional occupation, there are lower and higher paying jobs. I don't think that anyone can assert that in the world of software development, there is a lack of earning power. If you are good, you can command a very lucrative salary. If you are somewhat competent, you can live very comfortably. The kicker is that there are so many people out there that are either (1)not talented at all or (2)don't care enough to learn enough to be a good programmer that make a decent living. Of course any business is going to attempt to pay their employees the least amount possible. There is nothing evil about this... It's a free market. Don't kid yourself about plastic surgeons and your relative importance and responsibility. (1) A plastic surgeon is DOCTOR and must endure a much more brutal training regimen than any software developer ever thought about (2) A software engineer can't accidentally kill someone while doing their (3) A software engineer can't fix rebuild a person's face that was destroyed in a car accident. (4) I can go on for a long time... The bottom line is, software developers are in a unique position. They can float and make a decent living or excel and make a great living... It's all about what the market will bear.
When I was mentioning the Medical - Comparisson, I had a particular case in mind, Of a Friend who has enhanced a piece of Medical examination kit Multifold the other anonymous poster almost Summed my feelings up. Anyhow my friend nearly had a nervous breakdown when he realised how important his algorythmical analysis would be, Eg How many Lives could be lost (or not saved ) if his Theories and analysis were wrong. (The Admin and Marketers couldn't have cared less) I'm Sure many other of us work in areas that are critical to Human life and Safety, "Air Traffic Control" to " motor car design ". As Benjamin Franklin is attributed with saying God does the healing and the docter takes the fee Note: I also believeBF Help in The US's first Appendectomy
Anyhow in this case I don't think you considered the BIGGER picture, Then again mabe the cleaner should be paid better for making the surgical area Hygenic, Regardz Colin Davies Ownguide NZ -
When I was mentioning the Medical - Comparisson, I had a particular case in mind, Of a Friend who has enhanced a piece of Medical examination kit Multifold the other anonymous poster almost Summed my feelings up. Anyhow my friend nearly had a nervous breakdown when he realised how important his algorythmical analysis would be, Eg How many Lives could be lost (or not saved ) if his Theories and analysis were wrong. (The Admin and Marketers couldn't have cared less) I'm Sure many other of us work in areas that are critical to Human life and Safety, "Air Traffic Control" to " motor car design ". As Benjamin Franklin is attributed with saying God does the healing and the docter takes the fee Note: I also believeBF Help in The US's first Appendectomy
Anyhow in this case I don't think you considered the BIGGER picture, Then again mabe the cleaner should be paid better for making the surgical area Hygenic, Regardz Colin Davies Ownguide NZ -
Yikes!!! I cannot think of a worse idea. Lets see.... 1) Raises are based on years of service, not performance .... what a great incentive for talented developers!!! 2) Limit what can be done in a single day.... we cannot make slower workers look bad 3) Go on strike every few years, and pay union dues 4) A promotion is when a person that works above you in your company's complex heirarchy is either run over by a bus or has retired 5) You succeed more when you play the 'political' game rather than work Personally I would change jobs before having to be a member of a union. However if there becomes a point in my life where I want to become a drone, I will gladly join a union.
I agree, I generally wonder at the competence of people advocating joining a union. If you know what you are doing then you have no need of a union, you have a skill that is very valuable. That alone will ensure you have a good income. Unions are for those whose skillset is not rare, or which is easy to come by. I'm not putting down people that choose those types of job, but if you think digging a roadside hole takes more skill than designing, writing, debugging and testing software, well, I disagree. Stephen Kellett
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I don't think you considered the BIGGER picture, Then again mabe the cleaner should be paid better for making the surgical area Hygenic Absolutely Colin! ;) Especially the Cleaner point!