Need your input: Making reports on members public
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Reports are always stored and viewable by admins.
PhilLenoir wrote:
allow a reporter the option to be publicly shown
This defeats the purpose
PhilLenoir wrote:
How much effort and inconvenience is it now to restore an account now?
Almost none.
PhilLenoir wrote:
How about dealing with retaliation, especially as it might be somewhat hidden?
This is the main issue for me. Retaliations will be far and few, and we will see them. A retaliatory vote will result in account closure, which could then incite the person to create sock puppets and go on a voting rampage. We can nuke the reports and close the account but then they may just keep popping up. ie. No different to what we have now anyway.
PhilLenoir wrote:
- Do you currently tap over-zealous reporters on the shoulder? How much effort would it be to do so?
We do. It has not been working consistently though.
PhilLenoir wrote:
I don't believe there's a mechanism for me to withdraw my actual report
No there isn't. We could add this, but not sure if it would help.
cheers Chris Maunder
What about my suggestions below this message? I would like to know your opinion
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Reports are always stored and viewable by admins.
PhilLenoir wrote:
allow a reporter the option to be publicly shown
This defeats the purpose
PhilLenoir wrote:
How much effort and inconvenience is it now to restore an account now?
Almost none.
PhilLenoir wrote:
How about dealing with retaliation, especially as it might be somewhat hidden?
This is the main issue for me. Retaliations will be far and few, and we will see them. A retaliatory vote will result in account closure, which could then incite the person to create sock puppets and go on a voting rampage. We can nuke the reports and close the account but then they may just keep popping up. ie. No different to what we have now anyway.
PhilLenoir wrote:
- Do you currently tap over-zealous reporters on the shoulder? How much effort would it be to do so?
We do. It has not been working consistently though.
PhilLenoir wrote:
I don't believe there's a mechanism for me to withdraw my actual report
No there isn't. We could add this, but not sure if it would help.
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris, How about this as an idea? Instead of the "strength" of someone's report being based on current rep points, how about a separate (and possibly hidden?) counter that records the validity of their previous reports. It would work something like this:
- I report a user, my "reporting strength" is recorded against that user
- If the member reports are successful, my "reporting strength" goes up, if unsuccessful it goes down
- If found guilty over over-zealous reporting, my reporting strength goes down
- Members with longevity and/or high rep points must have more points against them for a ban to be successful, possibly requiring manual confirmation from a restricted subset of members
I can see that, with the amount of spam we've had lately, it might be easy to get high "reporting strength", requiring some tuning of the sensitivity. If this counter is kept hidden it would prevent "farming" as no one would know their own score. It would mean that a very large number of puppet accounts would be required to put an existing account under threat. You've spent a great deal of thought on this and I'd be more than happy to "give you my proxy". I very much support the concepts of openness that you advocate, but I'm also painfully aware of some of the pitfalls of human nature. Programmers should be inured against review and criticism, but sometimes ....!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Pualee wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible to track which accounts were closed unjustly (based on response from the closed account) and then see who is abusing power...
Yes, and we have this already. However it feels...undemocratic, for want of a better word. We see who does it, we talk to them, they do it again. We nuke their account and no one sees the debate or the reasons.
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
t feels...undemocratic
Democracy gave us George Bush (both of them), Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin.. perhaps it's not all it's cracked up to be? :laugh:
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
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I think it'll be a net positive, but I do worry about retaliation. I think the net positive will be that since your name will be published, then only those who have a legitimate beef will report the account. The retaliation could probably be minimized by listing the reporting members *only when* the account is closed. In addition, perhaps you should require a reason or comment.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert EinsteinTheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
only those who have a legitimate beef will report the account
Theoretically, yes, but I think a lot will just think it's not worth the potential hassle to report something, even if they have a legitimate issue with it (not rocking the boat, and all that).
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
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We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown.
I have reported a reasonable number of messages as either abuse or spam. I think that I did it properly and did not abuse the privilege. I figured that administrators had access to my activity and if I did something wrong I would hear about it. I know that some people don't like being classified in such a manner. Some people who advertise black magic, UFC PPV or male enhancement pills consider themselves in the right to do so anywhere they please. Retribution for these folks is not limited to account deletion on CP. If you make the above info public, I won't likely do any of the spam/abuse maintenance any more.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
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Chris Maunder wrote:
t feels...undemocratic
Democracy gave us George Bush (both of them), Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin.. perhaps it's not all it's cracked up to be? :laugh:
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
Or as Churchill is claimed to have said: "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." But then he also said: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
only those who have a legitimate beef will report the account
Theoretically, yes, but I think a lot will just think it's not worth the potential hassle to report something, even if they have a legitimate issue with it (not rocking the boat, and all that).
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
That doesn't change what I said at all.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
My virtual two-cents is: try it, and see what happens. If the outcome is more dysfunctional for CP as a whole: revert, or change again.
«What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning» Werner Heisenberg
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We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
I'm having mixed feelings about this. A lot of opinions have already been expressed, especially when it comes to retribution. I'm not really afraid of retribution. After all, what can a new user do? Downvote my articles for -3 rep per vote? It's annoying, but hardly damaging. However, I think it would make sense, only to avoid retribution, to limit the amount of reports and downvotes that a user with less than x rep can make to a single user. Especially when the downvoted items are older than, say, a week. Let's be honest, how often does a new user come along, read an article, decide it deserves a 1 vote and then reads another article by that same user and again decides it deserves a 1 vote? And then even a third article, on the same day? And articles that most other users found to be worthy of a 4 or 5? Then that's obviously a troll at work! That said, I love my 'anonimity'. Sure, admins can probably see everything I do, but the regular CP user can only guess. And I'm more than willing to explain my choices against any admin or, more generally, any reasonable user who isn't out for revenge :) And when we have anonimity we don't have retribution (unless someone goes all out offensive against a user, but then you're just asking for it). Coincidentally (or maybe not completely by coincidence) I explained why I love my anonimity in this post just a few pages up in the lounge[^]. Perhaps you should simply have some extra admins, trusted CP members who can see what everyone does. It's a bit of both worlds. I'm not completely anonymous, but it isn't all up to you, Chris Maunder, (hypothetically speaking) to keep 11 million members in check. So when Sergey get's his account deactivated (or whatever happened) an OriginalGriff (most obvious example), or any appointed/chosen/'automatic-by-rep' admin can do something about it too. I'll refrain from saying if your suggestion nets out positive or negative. There's certainly a bit of both. Maybe it's a break-even, only time can tell.
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
} -
We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
As we're talking only when an account is closed (rather than just a message deleted) : 1. It is (or at least should be) relatively hard to have a 'regular' user account deleted (i.e. someone who has a few rep points and has been here a while) - so this should be rare. 2. It is (or at least should be) relatively easy to have a new account deleted (i.e. someone who creates an account and just uses it for Spam) In case 2, the op would never bother with retaliation. In case 1, they may, of course, but they must surely have done something pretty bad to deserve that sized slap (think MM and elephants) and they would, one hopes, just get back on and ask you nice chaps for their account back But I don't see what advantage this has? Keeping spam accounts seems a waste to me - they're never coming back and seeing thousands of one-off accounts being nuked just lets one see how much spam there is. Keeping 'real' member's accounts seems like a good idea - don't nuke them - just disable them with an appropriate message on their account page ("nuked due to angry mob") - but listing who voted them off the island? No advantage, I think... **EDIT** Having seen your comment in bugs & sugs it seems this move is prompted to stop people abusing their power and leading to the removal of an account... by naming and shaming you hope they won't vote abuse unless they feel they can stand up to their claims, I guess? But, to me, it seems that the problem might be that it it too easy to nuke an account via the abusive vote Do we need to differentiate between an abusive post and an account ? Nuke the post if necessary - and maybe suspend an account with > x abuse votes for a period of time, rather than nuking it? Are the people really voting to remove the user's account, or just to give them a slap? If the latter (which I think in general is likely) then give them a slap - not a rocket ?!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Chris Maunder wrote:
if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown.
I have reported a reasonable number of messages as either abuse or spam. I think that I did it properly and did not abuse the privilege. I figured that administrators had access to my activity and if I did something wrong I would hear about it. I know that some people don't like being classified in such a manner. Some people who advertise black magic, UFC PPV or male enhancement pills consider themselves in the right to do so anywhere they please. Retribution for these folks is not limited to account deletion on CP. If you make the above info public, I won't likely do any of the spam/abuse maintenance any more.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
H.Brydon wrote:
If you make the above info public, I won't likely do any of the spam/abuse maintenance any more.
Out of interest: why? Because you fear retribution by the black magic spammers? (And no, I'm not being facetious). I think you over estimate the amount they care.
cheers Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote:
t feels...undemocratic
Democracy gave us George Bush (both of them), Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin.. perhaps it's not all it's cracked up to be? :laugh:
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
Brent Jenkins wrote:
Democracy gave us George Bush
You seem to have a different understanding of American politics than I do. ;)
cheers Chris Maunder
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Chris, How about this as an idea? Instead of the "strength" of someone's report being based on current rep points, how about a separate (and possibly hidden?) counter that records the validity of their previous reports. It would work something like this:
- I report a user, my "reporting strength" is recorded against that user
- If the member reports are successful, my "reporting strength" goes up, if unsuccessful it goes down
- If found guilty over over-zealous reporting, my reporting strength goes down
- Members with longevity and/or high rep points must have more points against them for a ban to be successful, possibly requiring manual confirmation from a restricted subset of members
I can see that, with the amount of spam we've had lately, it might be easy to get high "reporting strength", requiring some tuning of the sensitivity. If this counter is kept hidden it would prevent "farming" as no one would know their own score. It would mean that a very large number of puppet accounts would be required to put an existing account under threat. You've spent a great deal of thought on this and I'd be more than happy to "give you my proxy". I very much support the concepts of openness that you advocate, but I'm also painfully aware of some of the pitfalls of human nature. Programmers should be inured against review and criticism, but sometimes ....!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
Thanks for your thoughts. The huge issue, though, is that abuse has come from members who have otherwise reported along the consensus.
cheers Chris Maunder
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We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
I am a bit surprised by this change : I have requested several the same thing for those who approve articles, and it was always rejected. I fail to see why reporting someone should be public whereas rejecting articles should remain private, or vice-versa.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
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I am a bit surprised by this change : I have requested several the same thing for those who approve articles, and it was always rejected. I fail to see why reporting someone should be public whereas rejecting articles should remain private, or vice-versa.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
Part of the issue is a basic "why and how" issue: where do we show approvers once an article is approved, and what value does it add?
cheers Chris Maunder
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As we're talking only when an account is closed (rather than just a message deleted) : 1. It is (or at least should be) relatively hard to have a 'regular' user account deleted (i.e. someone who has a few rep points and has been here a while) - so this should be rare. 2. It is (or at least should be) relatively easy to have a new account deleted (i.e. someone who creates an account and just uses it for Spam) In case 2, the op would never bother with retaliation. In case 1, they may, of course, but they must surely have done something pretty bad to deserve that sized slap (think MM and elephants) and they would, one hopes, just get back on and ask you nice chaps for their account back But I don't see what advantage this has? Keeping spam accounts seems a waste to me - they're never coming back and seeing thousands of one-off accounts being nuked just lets one see how much spam there is. Keeping 'real' member's accounts seems like a good idea - don't nuke them - just disable them with an appropriate message on their account page ("nuked due to angry mob") - but listing who voted them off the island? No advantage, I think... **EDIT** Having seen your comment in bugs & sugs it seems this move is prompted to stop people abusing their power and leading to the removal of an account... by naming and shaming you hope they won't vote abuse unless they feel they can stand up to their claims, I guess? But, to me, it seems that the problem might be that it it too easy to nuke an account via the abusive vote Do we need to differentiate between an abusive post and an account ? Nuke the post if necessary - and maybe suspend an account with > x abuse votes for a period of time, rather than nuking it? Are the people really voting to remove the user's account, or just to give them a slap? If the latter (which I think in general is likely) then give them a slap - not a rocket ?!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
_Maxxx_ wrote:
by naming and shaming you hope they won't vote abuse unless they feel they can stand up to their claims, I guess?
Correct
_Maxxx_ wrote:
But, to me, it seems that the problem might be that it it too easy to nuke an account via the abusive vote
Also correct, and something we fixed.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Do we need to differentiate between an abusive post and an account ?
Nuking spammer accounts quickly helps make life inconvenient for them.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Are the people really voting to remove the user's account, or just to give them a slap?
This one I don't know. I'm not even sure it's purely to give a slap or just to stir trouble.
cheers Chris Maunder
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Brent Jenkins wrote:
Democracy gave us George Bush
You seem to have a different understanding of American politics than I do. ;)
cheers Chris Maunder
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We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
YES Just do it already!
veni bibi saltavi
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Part of the issue is a basic "why and how" issue: where do we show approvers once an article is approved, and what value does it add?
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
where do we show approvers
At the start, at the bottom, hidden in a tab, etc... plenty of possible places.
Chris Maunder wrote:
what value does it add?
- Stop rep points harvesting that cause bad articles to be approved, so prevent bad articles from being approved - Discuss about content with the people having approved by articles - Discourage "fellow" approvals
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
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We're discussing changes to the member reporting system and I wanted your input as a sanity check. At the moment when a member's account is closed due to reports, it disappears. It's like it never happened and no one can prove anything. It's like we provide the alibi and the getaway car. We're going to change this so that if an account is closed due to a member or members reporting that account, a list of all those who reported the account will be shown. I would be proud to have my name shown as the one who stopped a spammer in their tracks, and I'd also be happy to hold my head up if I had to close an account of a member who was being abusive and disruptive. Not everyone feels the same, however, and so I'm expecting some members will stop reporting spammers/abusers when this change is made. That's fine, as long as there are members still willing to do the right thing. So my question is: Do you feel these changes will have a net positive or net negative effect on our site's membership and its ability to control spam and abuse?
cheers Chris Maunder
It will exclude people who do not feel strongly enough to (or are not able to adequately) back up their decisions, so it will improve accuracy and appropriateness.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
