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Use of torture in interrogation

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  • P paulb

    What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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    Eddie Velasquez
    wrote on last edited by
    #30

    paulb wrote: think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed. I have just one question: Imagine for a moment that we go back in time a couple of years and the authorities capture Mohhammed Atta. Now, suppose that they know that the guy is brewing something but the guy is not talking. Would you approve the use of torture in this case? The life of this scumbag you've saved the life of thousands. For me it's a clear yes. Beyond morality, religion and politics... it's a simple matter of survival. You can argue and follow the "rules" when you're dealing with somebody that is willing to follow the "rules" too. But in this case, they're not and it's a matter of them or us. I choose me and my family and friends. Who do you choose?

    There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

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    • R Russell Morris

      Nishant S wrote: War will achieve only temporary goals. Every war leaves behind it memories that serve to increase mutual hatred among humans. This in turn leads to further wars. I think that you are wrong here - it's not a given that war will lead to future wars as a direct result. Look at how stable western Europe has been since WWII. Look at how stable and close the relationship between the US and Japan is. Look at how close the US and England are. There are no feuds brewing between these once bitter enemies. It is not war itself that creates the seeds for future wars - it is the way that the victor treats the defeated after the war that can either sow seeds of friendship or future war. For instance, if the US had just got up and left after turning Japan into a smoking hole, they would most certainly be our great enemies today. But instead the US went to great effort to help rebuild the country after the war. Not out of pity or guilt, but out of recognition that perceived weakness and fear - be it in a man or a nation - is the root of violence in otherwise rational behavior. Now, this particular war, I think, is a bad idea. Not because of the "innocents and children" that will be killed - war doesn't come in a non-Hell version - but because the reason for it being fought are shaky at best, and because the wanted outcome of a victory isn't going to happen. In the endgame, Bush wants a stable Middle East that loves to sell oil to the US and doesn't want to bug any of our friends or convince 13 year old kids to blow themselves up in restaraunts. The administration seems to think that ousting Sadam will further this goal - I do not. BTW: There is no way that the UN can come out of this situation without looking worthless. One of these two things will happen: - US goes to war against its wishes (which looks like what will happen). This makes the UN look completely powerless. - US doesn't go to war, conceding to the UN. UN continues to apply worthless and damaging trade sanctions, and continues to let itself pretend that weapons inspectors have a snowball's chance in hell of getting Iraq to comply with the disarmament treaty. Either way, the UN looks like beaurocracy for the sake of beaurocracy - not so much shaping the future state of the world, but just complaining about how others do it. -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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      Nitron
      wrote on last edited by
      #31

      Well put. I agree. - Nitron

      "Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

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      • P paulb

        What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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        Roger Wright
        wrote on last edited by
        #32

        Torture is a perfectly acceptable way to obtain information, so long as you are willing to admit that you are as morally bereft as your victim subject. It is ok for women not to like sports, so long as they nod in the right places and bring beers at the right times.
        Paul Watson, on Sports - 2/10/2003

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        • V voodoopriestess

          Hummm, Just coz someone has a different opinion or religion does not make it ok for you to bomb, torture, kill, or whatever them! This goes to Americans, Brits, members of Al Qaeda or anyone else for that matter. The Americans decry what happened to them as terrorism yet they supply several countries with weapons and other items. They don't do anything about Israel / Palestine or Southern Africa. For the record - I'm British and am against the (pending?) war against Iraq! Iain ---- "I would be careful in separating your weirdness, a good quirky quantum weirdness, from the disturbed weirdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories."

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          Nitron
          wrote on last edited by
          #33

          voodoopriestess wrote: For the record - I'm British and am against the (pending?) war against Iraq! As an American, I am not. It is the job of the president of the United States to protect the saftey of the American people. If there are people who believe Iraq is no threat, that is fine. It is good that these people can express that opinion. However, IMO the cost of doing nothing is a risk I would not want my leader to take. Although the peace-mongers oppose the use of force in Iraq, I would never wish upon them the lesson learned by the attack on my country. - Nitron

          "Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

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          • P paulb

            What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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            ColinDavies
            wrote on last edited by
            #34

            Better be a live barbarian than a dead crusader. Regardz Colin J Davies

            Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

            I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign' Rob Manderson wrote:

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            • P paulb

              What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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              Christian Graus
              wrote on last edited by
              #35

              More to the point, how can you even know any info you get is accurate ? But I agree, the barbarity and sinking to their level makes it not an option. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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              • P paulb

                What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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                Jack Puppy
                wrote on last edited by
                #36

                Out of all the things that could be done to someone, do you honestly think that blindfolding and tying someone up to a stretcher is a "barbaric" form of torture? Oh those warm, fuzzy terrorists usually do this, but of course they'll follow it up by lopping/blasting the victims head off after a certain amount of time. I think that's the only real minor difference I see. It's a real simple choice for me if the information gained saves London from a chemical attack, or San Franscico from a dirty bomb, or Rome from a tampered food supply, etc, etc. Unfortunately I value ordinary people's lives much more than a bunch of scumbags who spend most of their day plotting ways to kill people.

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                • V voodoopriestess

                  Hummm, Just coz someone has a different opinion or religion does not make it ok for you to bomb, torture, kill, or whatever them! This goes to Americans, Brits, members of Al Qaeda or anyone else for that matter. The Americans decry what happened to them as terrorism yet they supply several countries with weapons and other items. They don't do anything about Israel / Palestine or Southern Africa. For the record - I'm British and am against the (pending?) war against Iraq! Iain ---- "I would be careful in separating your weirdness, a good quirky quantum weirdness, from the disturbed weirdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories."

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                  bryce
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #37

                  voodoopriestess wrote: The Americans decry what happened to them as terrorism yet they supply several countries with weapons and other items. They don't do anything about Israel / Palestine or Southern Africa. erm to disagree with your commonly held misconception, the states does and has indeed work(ed) very ard to help sort out the israel / palestine issue. as for south africa, which part do you take exception to? Bryce

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                  • T Tim Smith

                    (EDITED to add more content) If you want a real clue about torture, check out these sites: http://www.stoptorture.org/[^] http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,757783,00.html[^] http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr92.html[^] The question you have to ask yourself: "Are you really concerned about torture or are you just bringing it up to make a political point?" How many of you have actually been to an Amnesty International meeting or fundraiser? Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.

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                    Lost User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #38

                    Tim Smith wrote: How many of you have actually been to an Amnesty International meeting or fundraiser? The silence is deafening! This crowd is mostly impotent. Mike Mullikin :beer:

                    Women: You can't live with them, and you can't get them to dress up in a skimpy Nazi costume and beat you with a warm squash. - Emo Phillips

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                    • R Russell Morris

                      Nishant S wrote: War will achieve only temporary goals. Every war leaves behind it memories that serve to increase mutual hatred among humans. This in turn leads to further wars. I think that you are wrong here - it's not a given that war will lead to future wars as a direct result. Look at how stable western Europe has been since WWII. Look at how stable and close the relationship between the US and Japan is. Look at how close the US and England are. There are no feuds brewing between these once bitter enemies. It is not war itself that creates the seeds for future wars - it is the way that the victor treats the defeated after the war that can either sow seeds of friendship or future war. For instance, if the US had just got up and left after turning Japan into a smoking hole, they would most certainly be our great enemies today. But instead the US went to great effort to help rebuild the country after the war. Not out of pity or guilt, but out of recognition that perceived weakness and fear - be it in a man or a nation - is the root of violence in otherwise rational behavior. Now, this particular war, I think, is a bad idea. Not because of the "innocents and children" that will be killed - war doesn't come in a non-Hell version - but because the reason for it being fought are shaky at best, and because the wanted outcome of a victory isn't going to happen. In the endgame, Bush wants a stable Middle East that loves to sell oil to the US and doesn't want to bug any of our friends or convince 13 year old kids to blow themselves up in restaraunts. The administration seems to think that ousting Sadam will further this goal - I do not. BTW: There is no way that the UN can come out of this situation without looking worthless. One of these two things will happen: - US goes to war against its wishes (which looks like what will happen). This makes the UN look completely powerless. - US doesn't go to war, conceding to the UN. UN continues to apply worthless and damaging trade sanctions, and continues to let itself pretend that weapons inspectors have a snowball's chance in hell of getting Iraq to comply with the disarmament treaty. Either way, the UN looks like beaurocracy for the sake of beaurocracy - not so much shaping the future state of the world, but just complaining about how others do it. -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #39

                      Russell Morris wrote: Look at how stable and close the relationship between the US and Japan is. Look at how close the US and England are. Hey! What about Australia? Our relationship is so close that our Prime Minister has his lips and tongue wedged firmly up George Dubya's arse. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

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                      • C Christian Graus

                        More to the point, how can you even know any info you get is accurate ? But I agree, the barbarity and sinking to their level makes it not an option. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                        Eddie Velasquez
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #40

                        Christian Graus wrote: More to the point, how can you even know any info you get is accurate Bad info means more pain. Christian Graus wrote: the barbarity and sinking to their level makes it not an option. It's a simple matter of survival. When someone isn't willing to respect my life no matter what, I have no other alternative than choosing life... mine.

                        There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

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                        • E Eddie Velasquez

                          Christian Graus wrote: More to the point, how can you even know any info you get is accurate Bad info means more pain. Christian Graus wrote: the barbarity and sinking to their level makes it not an option. It's a simple matter of survival. When someone isn't willing to respect my life no matter what, I have no other alternative than choosing life... mine.

                          There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

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                          Christian Graus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #41

                          Thanks for that, Torquemada Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                          • P paulb

                            What do you think about the use of torture, whether psychological or physical, to get information out of captured Al Qaeda people? Like the recent capture in Pakistan... that guy probably has a lot of useful information but is unlikely to give it up under any normal interrogation methods. Heres a photo of John Walker Lindh, the American captured fighting with the Taliban in Afganistan. They tied him to a stretcher naked for some time... www.konformist.com/images/2002/john-walker-lindh.jpg[^] I think this is just barbaric, no matter what information could be gained I don't think it is worth sinking to this kind of level to get it. You are no better than the terrorists themselves by doing this and you lose any kind of moral superiority against them you might have claimed.

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                            bryce
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #42

                            i disagree if you dont get the information out of the bugger then more people will be the victims of these bastards, you also have to send a strong "do not **** with us" message to people involved in these sorts of behaviour. Bryce

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                            • T tidge

                              It's ok to kill the person in hand to hand combat because it is a situation where it is kill or be killed. It is not o.k. to kill a person that is surrendering, because they are surrendering, hence, not fighting anymore. The object of war isn't to kill, it's to accomplish certain goals. While those goals may involving killing people, the actual killing is just a means to an end.

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                              bryce
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #43

                              tidge wrote: t is not o.k. to kill a person that is surrendering, because they are surrendering, hence, not fighting anymore it depends onthe situation you're look a right dick if they messed you up when you relaxed your guard because they were "surrendering" Bryce

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                              • T Tim Smith

                                (EDITED to add more content) If you want a real clue about torture, check out these sites: http://www.stoptorture.org/[^] http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,757783,00.html[^] http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr92.html[^] The question you have to ask yourself: "Are you really concerned about torture or are you just bringing it up to make a political point?" How many of you have actually been to an Amnesty International meeting or fundraiser? Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.

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                                bryce
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #44

                                that taliban joker lost all "poor me" rights the moment they drove planes into buildings i couldnt give a toss if they drugged beat electrocuted the sod who after all is _directly_ responsible for the death of how many people? and the first person who bangs on about "war" and leaders like bush et al and attempts to draw a conclusion that any war is morally the same as the sept 11 events (ergo we shouldnt be treating these terrorists badly because it makes us as bad as them) will be first up against the wall to be shot :) Bryce

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                                • C Christian Graus

                                  More to the point, how can you even know any info you get is accurate ? But I agree, the barbarity and sinking to their level makes it not an option. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                                  bryce
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #45

                                  you would then look pretty silly if you later found out that the subject had information that had you obtained it, woudl have saved the lives of many people. You have the moral highground if you want to call it that, in that your purpose is to stop/prevent terrorism and therefore save the lives it would take. Bryce

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                                  • B bryce

                                    you would then look pretty silly if you later found out that the subject had information that had you obtained it, woudl have saved the lives of many people. You have the moral highground if you want to call it that, in that your purpose is to stop/prevent terrorism and therefore save the lives it would take. Bryce

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                                    Christian Graus
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #46

                                    bryce wrote: you would then look pretty silly if you later found out that the subject had information that had you obtained it, woudl have saved the lives of many people. Or you could look like a human being when the shooting stops. Your choice, really. You can always justify evil. So can they. The question is, do you want to ? The alternative being put forward is probably closer to the truth, America is as barbaric and as bloodthirsty as Saddam Hussein, just encumbered with a veneer of respectability. Have you read the book 1984 ? Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                                    • C Christian Graus

                                      bryce wrote: you would then look pretty silly if you later found out that the subject had information that had you obtained it, woudl have saved the lives of many people. Or you could look like a human being when the shooting stops. Your choice, really. You can always justify evil. So can they. The question is, do you want to ? The alternative being put forward is probably closer to the truth, America is as barbaric and as bloodthirsty as Saddam Hussein, just encumbered with a veneer of respectability. Have you read the book 1984 ? Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                                      bryce
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #47

                                      Christian Graus wrote: Or you could look like a human being when the shooting stops. Your choice, really. You can always justify evil. So can they. The question is, do you want to ? tell ya what, i'll go for saving lives. And if people knew after the fact that you had in your custody someone who could give you information which would have averted a terrorist act which then cost lives, they would be quite rightly very pissed off with you for not attempting to get the information. Torture is not "evil" its a means to an end. Christian Graus wrote: The alternative being put forward is probably closer to the truth, America is as barbaric and as bloodthirsty as Saddam Hussein, just encumbered with a veneer of respectability thats a typical anti american left wing misconception. I know you to be smarter than this christian. 1984 george orwell....more apt for a communist/dictatorial state than the the likes of australia or USA. bryce

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                                      • B bryce

                                        Christian Graus wrote: Or you could look like a human being when the shooting stops. Your choice, really. You can always justify evil. So can they. The question is, do you want to ? tell ya what, i'll go for saving lives. And if people knew after the fact that you had in your custody someone who could give you information which would have averted a terrorist act which then cost lives, they would be quite rightly very pissed off with you for not attempting to get the information. Torture is not "evil" its a means to an end. Christian Graus wrote: The alternative being put forward is probably closer to the truth, America is as barbaric and as bloodthirsty as Saddam Hussein, just encumbered with a veneer of respectability thats a typical anti american left wing misconception. I know you to be smarter than this christian. 1984 george orwell....more apt for a communist/dictatorial state than the the likes of australia or USA. bryce

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                                        Christian Graus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #48

                                        bryce wrote: Torture is not "evil" its a means to an end. I sincerely hope that you are sent to war, are captured and tortured. It might pull your views into what I like to call 'the real world'. bryce wrote: thats a typical anti american left wing misconception. I know you to be smarter than this christian. I said closer to the truth, not the absolute truth. I don't think it's that simple, nor do I think it's as simply as black and white hats. bryce wrote: 1984 george orwell....more apt for a communist/dictatorial state than the the likes of australia or USA. I was thinking of the sequence where the main character agrees to maim children and so on if it will further the cause of the revolution, and then at the end, those same words were replayed to show him the unrighteousness of his cause. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                                        • C Christian Graus

                                          bryce wrote: Torture is not "evil" its a means to an end. I sincerely hope that you are sent to war, are captured and tortured. It might pull your views into what I like to call 'the real world'. bryce wrote: thats a typical anti american left wing misconception. I know you to be smarter than this christian. I said closer to the truth, not the absolute truth. I don't think it's that simple, nor do I think it's as simply as black and white hats. bryce wrote: 1984 george orwell....more apt for a communist/dictatorial state than the the likes of australia or USA. I was thinking of the sequence where the main character agrees to maim children and so on if it will further the cause of the revolution, and then at the end, those same words were replayed to show him the unrighteousness of his cause. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

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                                          bryce
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #49

                                          Christian Graus wrote: I sincerely hope that you are sent to war, are captured and tortured. It might pull your views into what I like to call 'the real world'. and i dare you to say that to me in a pub. My guess is you've never even been in a decent fistfight. Christian Graus wrote: I said closer to the truth, not the absolute truth. I don't think it's that simple, nor do I think it's as simply as black and white hats. no its your "version" of the truth. Christian Graus wrote: I was thinking of the sequence where the main character agrees to maim children and so on if it will further the cause of the revolution, and then at the end, those same words were replayed to show him the unrighteousness of his cause. *yawn*

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