Why are so many people using WPF let alone Microsoft
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I am not sad to say that Microsoft needs to just quit making software! I have been a big supporter of Microsoft for years but lately all they produce is garbage. I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this. It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple. In fact when I started to ask questions about how to do it the only response I get was "ummm.... I have to look at your code" no one seems to have a simple response. Even researching online I never see a clear example not even from Microsoft's own site. So if the company that wrote this can't provide a simple example why are so many people dedicated to make this shit work. The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep. Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy. Yet you see the demand for everyone to have this skill set from employers. A framework should deliver the following features to developers: stability of execution, obviousness of design, simplicity, and hopefully a reduction of effort. If you can't ensure these traits don't deliver a product, you will just weaken the end user. I don't feel that WPF delivers any of these traits. In fact a much broader statement could be made here Microsoft as a company no longer supplies this, or maybe it never did. I started looking back at everything Microsoft has produced and I realized its just a lousy provider of software in general. I kind of wish more people would abandon these products for the sake of pressuring these industry giants to start providing better solutions. If we as a community continue to accept inferior tools to do our jobs it will only become more difficult to progress forward. I know that some people will say "well if you don't like Microsoft what would you use in place of it?" The answer is I don't have a good answer to that one. There are so many lousy software companies out there that provide bottom of the barrel products that there is no safe haven for anyone. I see too many times that people generate so many patches or hack code to work around platform bugs that I wonder what would the software look like if you didn't always have to fix the code before you work on your own problem. If you eve wonder why you have so many service calls start looking at the underlying problems with the framework you have chosen you may find your answer there.
nothing
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I am not sad to say that Microsoft needs to just quit making software! I have been a big supporter of Microsoft for years but lately all they produce is garbage. I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this. It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple. In fact when I started to ask questions about how to do it the only response I get was "ummm.... I have to look at your code" no one seems to have a simple response. Even researching online I never see a clear example not even from Microsoft's own site. So if the company that wrote this can't provide a simple example why are so many people dedicated to make this shit work. The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep. Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy. Yet you see the demand for everyone to have this skill set from employers. A framework should deliver the following features to developers: stability of execution, obviousness of design, simplicity, and hopefully a reduction of effort. If you can't ensure these traits don't deliver a product, you will just weaken the end user. I don't feel that WPF delivers any of these traits. In fact a much broader statement could be made here Microsoft as a company no longer supplies this, or maybe it never did. I started looking back at everything Microsoft has produced and I realized its just a lousy provider of software in general. I kind of wish more people would abandon these products for the sake of pressuring these industry giants to start providing better solutions. If we as a community continue to accept inferior tools to do our jobs it will only become more difficult to progress forward. I know that some people will say "well if you don't like Microsoft what would you use in place of it?" The answer is I don't have a good answer to that one. There are so many lousy software companies out there that provide bottom of the barrel products that there is no safe haven for anyone. I see too many times that people generate so many patches or hack code to work around platform bugs that I wonder what would the software look like if you didn't always have to fix the code before you work on your own problem. If you eve wonder why you have so many service calls start looking at the underlying problems with the framework you have chosen you may find your answer there.
nothing
I find the same with all the .NET framework, each object and method is documented... with the obvious. But there is no MSDN page saying things like "File Operations: the classes aaaa, bbbb... zzz are the main interfaces with the File System. If you need to do this other thing that looks related plese look classes abc and bcd.". Then you look at class aaaa and see it is a file indexing so maybe you don't need it, bbb is a parser, and so on. The plain old API is perfectly documented and there is little anyone can't do with a couple of days at most of documentation delving. The whole overgrown .NET framework is a collection of obscure objects.
Geek code v 3.12 { GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X } If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
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I find the same with all the .NET framework, each object and method is documented... with the obvious. But there is no MSDN page saying things like "File Operations: the classes aaaa, bbbb... zzz are the main interfaces with the File System. If you need to do this other thing that looks related plese look classes abc and bcd.". Then you look at class aaaa and see it is a file indexing so maybe you don't need it, bbb is a parser, and so on. The plain old API is perfectly documented and there is little anyone can't do with a couple of days at most of documentation delving. The whole overgrown .NET framework is a collection of obscure objects.
Geek code v 3.12 { GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X } If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
That sounds more like a documentation problem than a framework one. If Microsoft only gave you a limited BCL, with simple classes to do simple things, then everyone would be complaining that there was no way to do some obscure complicated thing. Instead, they give you a large set of classes which let you do almost anything, and they get berated because it's not simple enough! :doh:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I am not sad to say that Microsoft needs to just quit making software! I have been a big supporter of Microsoft for years but lately all they produce is garbage. I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this. It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple. In fact when I started to ask questions about how to do it the only response I get was "ummm.... I have to look at your code" no one seems to have a simple response. Even researching online I never see a clear example not even from Microsoft's own site. So if the company that wrote this can't provide a simple example why are so many people dedicated to make this shit work. The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep. Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy. Yet you see the demand for everyone to have this skill set from employers. A framework should deliver the following features to developers: stability of execution, obviousness of design, simplicity, and hopefully a reduction of effort. If you can't ensure these traits don't deliver a product, you will just weaken the end user. I don't feel that WPF delivers any of these traits. In fact a much broader statement could be made here Microsoft as a company no longer supplies this, or maybe it never did. I started looking back at everything Microsoft has produced and I realized its just a lousy provider of software in general. I kind of wish more people would abandon these products for the sake of pressuring these industry giants to start providing better solutions. If we as a community continue to accept inferior tools to do our jobs it will only become more difficult to progress forward. I know that some people will say "well if you don't like Microsoft what would you use in place of it?" The answer is I don't have a good answer to that one. There are so many lousy software companies out there that provide bottom of the barrel products that there is no safe haven for anyone. I see too many times that people generate so many patches or hack code to work around platform bugs that I wonder what would the software look like if you didn't always have to fix the code before you work on your own problem. If you eve wonder why you have so many service calls start looking at the underlying problems with the framework you have chosen you may find your answer there.
nothing
If you're going to post a long rant, first locate the "Enter" or "Return" key on your keyboard! Putting everything in one long paragraph makes it much less likely that anyone will read it.
icestatue wrote:
I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this.
WPF is excellent at MVVM[^]. To the point that MVVM didn't exist before WPF, because it depends on features that are only available in WPF.
icestatue wrote:
It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple.
It's incredibly simple - if you've embraced MVVM.
<ComboBox
ItemsSource="{Binding Path=SomeListOfItems, Mode=OneWay}"
SelectedValue="{Binding Path=TheSelectedItem, ValidatesOnDataErrors=True, ValidatesOnExceptions=True}"
/>icestatue wrote:
Even researching online I never see a clear example ...
Step by Step WPF Data Binding with Comboboxes[^] (OK, it's not a Microsoft article, but documentation has never been Microsoft's strong point!)
icestatue wrote:
The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep.
Every platform is "not obvious" when you're just starting out. Giving up an announcing that the whole platform is shit just because you haven't mastered it yet isn't the best way to learn!
icestatue wrote:
Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy.
That was the case 10 years ago, when WPF was introduced. Microsoft have made significant improvements since then.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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If you're going to post a long rant, first locate the "Enter" or "Return" key on your keyboard! Putting everything in one long paragraph makes it much less likely that anyone will read it.
icestatue wrote:
I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this.
WPF is excellent at MVVM[^]. To the point that MVVM didn't exist before WPF, because it depends on features that are only available in WPF.
icestatue wrote:
It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple.
It's incredibly simple - if you've embraced MVVM.
<ComboBox
ItemsSource="{Binding Path=SomeListOfItems, Mode=OneWay}"
SelectedValue="{Binding Path=TheSelectedItem, ValidatesOnDataErrors=True, ValidatesOnExceptions=True}"
/>icestatue wrote:
Even researching online I never see a clear example ...
Step by Step WPF Data Binding with Comboboxes[^] (OK, it's not a Microsoft article, but documentation has never been Microsoft's strong point!)
icestatue wrote:
The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep.
Every platform is "not obvious" when you're just starting out. Giving up an announcing that the whole platform is shit just because you haven't mastered it yet isn't the best way to learn!
icestatue wrote:
Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy.
That was the case 10 years ago, when WPF was introduced. Microsoft have made significant improvements since then.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I am not sad to say that Microsoft needs to just quit making software! I have been a big supporter of Microsoft for years but lately all they produce is garbage. I understand the basic Ideology of MVVM for applications but WPF is terrible at delivering this. It used to be a simple task to wire up a simple combo box to display a list of options but with WPF its not so simple. In fact when I started to ask questions about how to do it the only response I get was "ummm.... I have to look at your code" no one seems to have a simple response. Even researching online I never see a clear example not even from Microsoft's own site. So if the company that wrote this can't provide a simple example why are so many people dedicated to make this shit work. The entire platform is not obvious and the learning curve is too steep. Additionally, it seems that performance of these applications is terrible and buggy. Yet you see the demand for everyone to have this skill set from employers. A framework should deliver the following features to developers: stability of execution, obviousness of design, simplicity, and hopefully a reduction of effort. If you can't ensure these traits don't deliver a product, you will just weaken the end user. I don't feel that WPF delivers any of these traits. In fact a much broader statement could be made here Microsoft as a company no longer supplies this, or maybe it never did. I started looking back at everything Microsoft has produced and I realized its just a lousy provider of software in general. I kind of wish more people would abandon these products for the sake of pressuring these industry giants to start providing better solutions. If we as a community continue to accept inferior tools to do our jobs it will only become more difficult to progress forward. I know that some people will say "well if you don't like Microsoft what would you use in place of it?" The answer is I don't have a good answer to that one. There are so many lousy software companies out there that provide bottom of the barrel products that there is no safe haven for anyone. I see too many times that people generate so many patches or hack code to work around platform bugs that I wonder what would the software look like if you didn't always have to fix the code before you work on your own problem. If you eve wonder why you have so many service calls start looking at the underlying problems with the framework you have chosen you may find your answer there.
nothing
What do you mean by "lately?" Microsoft has never released a working product, and has consistently lowered quality standards for the entire industry. They were the first to sell software that doesn't work, then have the gall to charge for updates. They were the first to eliminate manuals. They were the first to charge for telephone support for their defective "products." They set the standard for non-performance that all modern software companies now profit from following. If you think WPF sucks, you should read the documentation (very expensive) for MFC someday.
Will Rogers never met me.
