An Informative Poll - USA

KaRl

Mike Gaskey wrote: Favor, no doubt at all. So, you're favorizing the use of the Force over the Law and the Right, and rejecting the Human Rights. What difference have you left with a Fascist ? Mike Gaskey wrote: That is a silly question, but you knew that Sorry, I don't. I don't think asking question about the use of torture is innocent, more a try to influence the US policy by pretending US citizens agree with such means. Mike Gaskey wrote: Now you'll have to explain that one. Just how does a news reporting organization become "evil" - or is it because they allow news that hasn't been filtered through a leftist lens Nope, this organization is evil not because of the ideas it's promoting, but because of the means it use. Read the Sun and the New York Post, and see how a disgusting campaign may be launched, using hatred, xenophobiac arguments and racist clichés to make its point. Murdoch's empire is dropping tons of shit on its opponents, using the same tactics used by totalitarian regims through the world. it has no honor and can't be respected.

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Doug Goulden

I don't know if you have been reading the papers lately, but Al Quada is already a radical group. If we were dicussing dealing with rational people I would agree with you, but in this case, these people have already made the decision how they feel about us, they hate our guts and want to kill us. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: I don't know if you have been reading the papers lately <sarcasm>No, I live in a cave without any contact with the rest of the world since 1982 </sarcasm> ;P Doug Goulden wrote: If we were dicussing dealing with rational people I would agree with you, but in this case, these people have already made the decision how they feel about us, they hate our guts and want to kill us. If you use the same means you loose also all moral authority to fight them back, and lower yourself at the same level, loosing also all the values you may believe and defend as the Right and the Law.

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: If you use the same means you loose also all moral authority to fight them back, and lower yourself at the same level, loosing also all the values you may believe and defend as the Right and the Law The rule of law..... you have to get someone to agree to live by those rules before you can use them as a tool. Al Quada and groups like them could care less about rules, laws, and resolutions. Until they are made to see that the only result they will get is a swift and effective response, they won't consider any other option. KaЯl wrote: No, I live in a cave without any contact with the rest of the world since 1982 Is that why French people use so much perfume?:omg: Sorry had to do it..... Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: you have to get someone to agree to live by those rules before you can use them as a tool That's why there are (still) international organizations. If we abandon what we believe in, the terrorists win. Doug Goulden wrote: Until they are made to see that the only result they will get is a swift and effective response, they won't consider any other option. You are applying your logic to the terrorists, believing they will act following it. But IMHO they don't use the same logic we do, if they even use one. Doug Goulden wrote: Is that why French people use so much perfume? <joking> I never use perfume, that attracts sissys ;P </joking>

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: You are applying your logic to the terrorists, believing they will act following it. But IMHO they don't use the same logic we do, if they even use one. I'm applying my logic thinking that the terrorists should see 2 options. Either act within normal standards of law and behavior, or be attacked and destroyed. If they can be made to see that there is an attractive solution and the other solution will be applied, I think it removes a lot of the doubt from their minds what to do. I would suspect that a lot of the people involved in these organizations lack the strength of their convictions. The problem either with this or with Iraq is there has to be a credible threat to how these type of people what is going to happen. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

IMHO, the word "terrorist" is relative and ambiguous. Insurgents would have been called terrorists if the word was already invented. The guys who committed 9/11 are not terrorists: they are mass murderers. Bombing a wedding banquet is not a political act, it's a crime (as bury people with bulldozers, BTW). We shouldn't consider them as some depraved soldiers, but as criminals. So, why should we treat them differently than our criminals? Are our moral, democratic, republican stances so weak we need to corrupt our Justice, create special rules for them and become criminals ourselves, by breaking the laws we made?

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: as bury people with bulldozers, BTW Are you talking about the 22 yold American in Israel? Thats a crime.... KaЯl wrote: We shouldn't consider them as some depraved soldiers, but as criminals. So, why should we treat them differently than our criminals Because, at least in the States a policeman can use deadly force to stop a criminal from harming someone. Also I don't suscribe to the idea that someone who is not a citizen deserves the same rights as a citizen. A foreign national who eenters any country for the purpose of harming tht nation should be treated as an enemy. They don't deserve the same priveliges that a citizen would have. BTW someone traveling inside a foreign country who violate that nations laws (but not with the intent of harming the nation) should be arrested and tried or expelled as that nation sees fit. Not to many years ago there was a teenage American arrested in Singapore who was going to be caned, a practice that is although harsh, legal in that country. He didn't deserve any special consideration and either does someone who enters a country with the intent of doing harm. A nation has the right to defend itself, and the groups we are dealing with have pledged themelves to destroy us. Thats not even something Jeffrey Dahlmer or Richard Speck did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: Also I don't suscribe to the idea that someone who is not a citizen deserves the same rights as a citizen Don't you believe the human rights are universal and inalienable :eek: ? Doug Goulden wrote: Thats not even something Jeffrey Dahlmer or Richard Speck did. :confused: Sure, I could search on google, but I'm sure you're able to do a better job explaining that to me directly :)

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: Don't you believe the human rights are universal and inalienable Yes, human rights are, unfortunately the US also tends to want to give social security benefits, medicaid, and the same legal rights to all. I personnaly subscribe to the idea of kick out the people who cause problems. Take their visa away and do not let them return. KaЯl wrote: Jeffrey Dahlmer Mass murdered killed and ate something like 25 - 30 young men. Was arrested in Millwaukee Wisconsin in I believe the 80's. Died in prison when another inmate impaled him with a broomstick. KaЯl wrote: Richard Speck Mass murderer who killed several nurses in the Chicago, Ill area. Didn't eat hi victims, but caused a scandal when was filmed while in prison while doing cocaine and bragging about how much sex he was having. Died of a heart attack in prison, turn out nobody was willing to do CPR to save him according to a guard I knew at the prison there. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: unfortunately the US also tends to want to give social security benefits, medicaid, and the same legal rights to all. We do so and it's IMO logical: our current constitution begins with the Declaration of Rights of Man and Citizen. First article: "Men are born and remain free and equal in rights"

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: We do so and it's IMO logical: our current constitution begins with the Declaration of Rights of Man and Citizen. First article: "Men are born and remain free and equal in rights" I guess I'm to much the conservative here. I resent the idea of people entering my country illegally and then being offered the priveleges that are associated with citizenship. I do believe every one has the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. BTW I don't have a problem with legal immigration, thats another topic. This country though is frequently "visited" by people wanting to escape tyranny. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: This country though is frequently "visited" by people wanting to escape tyranny. Our countries share that, made by aggregation of people and cultures.

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Doug Goulden

Have you been listening to the news? Fox news just reported from the Pentagon that the Pentagon has info that Iraqi troops have been armed with chemical artillery shells. BTW British House of Commons just really let the French have it. Blame you guy for the inability to pressure Iraq into cooperation. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

I didn't hear this one yet, but as I said before a war is greatly increasing the risk of use of WMD. SH knows he's dead, and many know they will follow him, so, what should they fear now? Doug Goulden wrote: BTW British House of Commons just really let the French have it Logical, they have to find a scape-goat for their public opinion, and blaming the French is always popular in UK. AFAIK, British opinion is against a war without UN authorization. If the government succeeds to convince it was impossible whatever (for example, by manipulating chirac's speech, and forgetting the use of veto by Russia), it hopes the public will follow him. Blair is brave. wrong, but brave. Zou, I connect myself on BBC world, the parliament debate is live.

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: I didn't hear this one yet, but as I said before a war is greatly increasing the risk of use of WMD. SH knows he's dead, and many know they will follow him, so, what should they fear now I thought the French were saying that Saddam was disarming? No WMD?;P Gonna get real messy. I jut hope for civilians sake that SH doesn't try to attack Israel with gas. They already promised to turn Baghdad into a smoking hole in the ground:(( The US troop are at least trained and we'll get him I don;t wanna see any attacks on civilians. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: I thought the French were saying that Saddam was disarming? No WMD? If I reminds me well my english lessons, "he's disarming" implies he hasn't desarmed yet ;P Doug Goulden wrote: SH doesn't try to attack Israel with gas I don't think Iraq has the capacity to export such a threat, I hope not being wrong. Israel would nuke Bagdad, and start a third world war :| Doug Goulden wrote: I don;t wanna see any attacks on civilians. War is Hell. Once started, there's no place for pity left.

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KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: British House of Commons just really let the French have it. Blame you guy for the inability to pressure Iraq into cooperation Leaked transcripts of telegrams from Spain's UN ambassador offer a behind-the-scenes insight into what happened at one of the most crucial points in the institution's recent history, from The Guardian

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Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: War is Hell. Once started, there's no place for pity left What about your human rights stance?;P Seriously though, thats part of why the US places cameras on their warplanes. That way they can assess bomb damage and in the case of "collatoral damage" they can find out what happened. "Collatoral damage" what a rotten way to say wrong place at the wrong time. BTW The Iraqis still have Scud missles, they dropped 39 of those on Israel during the first Gulf war. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: What about your human rights stance I'm studying war, particularly WWs, for more than 20 years. I have no illusion on what happens on the field. Doug Goulden wrote: "Collatoral damage" what a rotten way to say wrong place at the wrong time. Not always. The small town where I lived when I was a child was targeted by a US bombing the 17th June 1944. The center-town was destroyed, 77 civilians were killed, no german. However, the bombing was "legitimate", the town was a cross-roads going to Normandy, and the ruins blocked the roads for a few days.

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