National Values vs Young Refugees
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Yeah, because there are so few people in NYC... :rolleyes:
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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This has got to win this year's most obscure response to a Lounge post award! :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Hence the "OT" disclaimer. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Well, you are still stuck with that award though. :-D
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Well, you are still stuck with that award though. :-D
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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I considered the soapbox, but too often all you see are rants. I was hoping for a serious discussion, as this is an issue that should transcend politics. (Of course, then there is the old Russian expression: "Everything is politics.")
Thank you for releasing it to the Lounge community.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
I considered the soapbox, but too often all you see are rants
That's politics for you. :)
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
IMHO - Don't let them get too far away from their conflicted origin. This is where they know the language, know the customs, know the food, etc... That means: 0) Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps. 1) Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP. 2) Get them home ASAP. Only if it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep them local should they be travelling to the far corners of the world where they will be forced to learn EVERYTHING new.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Unfortunately it's getting worse. Today is Super Tuesday. Give your vote. Raise your voice to the person who can help you. Rdgs, Step Gone.
By posting this to the Lounge instead of the soapbox, I was hoping to start a serious discussion started. Notice that I did not mention their country of origin, religion or native language. There are many places in the world they could be from. The key scramblers on this story are, for me, their age, lack of documentation, lack of education, and culture shock. Almost every civilized country has some sort of a welfare system that could provide for the basic necessities, once they learn how to access it. But welfare does not provide much assist with the other issues.
Also, I did not want to limit the discussion to those landing on American shores. Many other nations, especially in Europe and southeastern Asia, are receiving substantial, if not overwhelming, numbers of refugees from various nations.
We are programmers. We solve problems and provide the tools that allow our politicians (or in some countries, political class) to implement solutions to the pressing problems of the day. To do this, we need to understand and explore the problems and be proactive in our solutions. As an example of our short-sighted thinking in the past: check boxes on a form labeled "Race:" allowing for the choice of black, white, or asian. In our modern globally-interconnected world, we need to think outside of the narrow boxes imposed by history or our local culture.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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IMHO - Don't let them get too far away from their conflicted origin. This is where they know the language, know the customs, know the food, etc... That means: 0) Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps. 1) Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP. 2) Get them home ASAP. Only if it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep them local should they be travelling to the far corners of the world where they will be forced to learn EVERYTHING new.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.
This is, and has long been, a failed policy. This has left us with peoples who have lived in refugee camps for generations. All their ties to their homeland have long been lost and destroyed. One only needs to look at the Palistinians, the Ethiopians, the Sudanese, .... You get the picture.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.
Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Jalapeno Bob wrote:
the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
Because they were upwardly mobile, and therefore able to help.
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community
Because they are no longer upwardly mobile.
Unless, by upwardly mobile, you mean that the parents desired that their children be more successful then themselves, you are quite wrong. All of my Grandparents and many of my aunts and uncles were refugees/immigrants. Mostly from eastern Europe, so they were made to feel quite unwelcome when they arrived (quotas, etc.). Not all could read/write but all of them learned English. None of the next generation went to college but did graduate High School and learn trades. All of the next generation had one thing in common: they spoke to their children in terms of "When you go to college" not "If you go to college". Their upward mobility was attitude. They escaped the ghetto. That was upward mobility. And it has not been closed: it's a wider door than every and certainly far wider then they (and other ethnic groups who weren't "the right kind of people" had. I'm in favor of giving help to those who will make good use of it. The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate. The doors aren't closed - the real problem is that the help is rarely geared to helping you get yourself up - but rather, a narcotic of contentment. Then, when opportunity isn't handed to you it's time to riot and more . . .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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By posting this to the Lounge instead of the soapbox, I was hoping to start a serious discussion started. Notice that I did not mention their country of origin, religion or native language. There are many places in the world they could be from. The key scramblers on this story are, for me, their age, lack of documentation, lack of education, and culture shock. Almost every civilized country has some sort of a welfare system that could provide for the basic necessities, once they learn how to access it. But welfare does not provide much assist with the other issues.
Also, I did not want to limit the discussion to those landing on American shores. Many other nations, especially in Europe and southeastern Asia, are receiving substantial, if not overwhelming, numbers of refugees from various nations.
We are programmers. We solve problems and provide the tools that allow our politicians (or in some countries, political class) to implement solutions to the pressing problems of the day. To do this, we need to understand and explore the problems and be proactive in our solutions. As an example of our short-sighted thinking in the past: check boxes on a form labeled "Race:" allowing for the choice of black, white, or asian. In our modern globally-interconnected world, we need to think outside of the narrow boxes imposed by history or our local culture.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
My dear, you're asking political questions not programming. That what the reply is for.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.
This is, and has long been, a failed policy. This has left us with peoples who have lived in refugee camps for generations. All their ties to their homeland have long been lost and destroyed. One only needs to look at the Palistinians, the Ethiopians, the Sudanese, .... You get the picture.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.
Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
Item 0 will always fail if we don't execute item 1.
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?
Yes This is getting a bit too political for the Lounge...
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Unless, by upwardly mobile, you mean that the parents desired that their children be more successful then themselves, you are quite wrong. All of my Grandparents and many of my aunts and uncles were refugees/immigrants. Mostly from eastern Europe, so they were made to feel quite unwelcome when they arrived (quotas, etc.). Not all could read/write but all of them learned English. None of the next generation went to college but did graduate High School and learn trades. All of the next generation had one thing in common: they spoke to their children in terms of "When you go to college" not "If you go to college". Their upward mobility was attitude. They escaped the ghetto. That was upward mobility. And it has not been closed: it's a wider door than every and certainly far wider then they (and other ethnic groups who weren't "the right kind of people" had. I'm in favor of giving help to those who will make good use of it. The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate. The doors aren't closed - the real problem is that the help is rarely geared to helping you get yourself up - but rather, a narcotic of contentment. Then, when opportunity isn't handed to you it's time to riot and more . . .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival? Your view on immigrants is the same view that earlier Americans had towards your family. You can look back on your own family's story as a story of hope and determination, but the descendants of current immigrants will do the same with their family. Your view isn't new, you're just on the other side of it now. Nativism (politics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[^]
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.
I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
So how do we help these new arrivals?
Ask the natives how they fared after the "new arrivals" landed. The people were not migrating en masse after the Iraq, Afghan nor Libanese war, yet suddenly there is a mass-migration. It might be more effective to stop 'spreading democracy' in the Middle East. It isn't an unattractive region as long as it isn't being bombed :)
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children
This is going to sound incredibly rude, but they reached safety. To put it in perspective, around 120k children in Africa as combattants or support-personnel would love to have a similar problem. What can you do? Donate clothing (a refugee tends to travel light without much wardrobe), and donate diapers, babyfood, old toys (again, travelling light), camping-equipment you can spare, organize basic requirements as shelter, organize a fund-raising or baking-competition to fund previously named, contact someone who looks for cheap labor and who is willing to pay them, or simply provide a recharge-point/wifi for their mobile phones. Anything that charges those using sunlight can help multiple people :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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I considered the soapbox, but too often all you see are rants. I was hoping for a serious discussion, as this is an issue that should transcend politics. (Of course, then there is the old Russian expression: "Everything is politics.")
Thank you for releasing it to the Lounge community.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
as this is an issue that should transcend politics.
The soapbox is exactly the right place for people who have ideas that they know what other people should be paying attention to. Your writing suggests you know very little about the actual immigrant experience in a global context, but, hey, why bother yourself with mere facts when you can indulge yourself in moral homilies ? Suggested reading: "Working" by Studs Terkel; "Ragtime" by E.L. Doctorow; "12 Years a Slave" by Solomon Northrup (the book, not the movie); "How the Other Half Lives" by Jacob Riis; "Angela's Ashes," by Frank McCourt.
«In art as in science there is no delight without the detail ... Let me repeat that unless these are thoroughly understood and remembered, all “general ideas” (so easily acquired, so profitably resold) must necessarily remain but worn passports allowing their bearers short cuts from one area of ignorance to another.» Vladimir Nabokov, commentary on translation of “Eugene Onegin.”
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Jalapeno Bob wrote:
as this is an issue that should transcend politics.
The soapbox is exactly the right place for people who have ideas that they know what other people should be paying attention to. Your writing suggests you know very little about the actual immigrant experience in a global context, but, hey, why bother yourself with mere facts when you can indulge yourself in moral homilies ? Suggested reading: "Working" by Studs Terkel; "Ragtime" by E.L. Doctorow; "12 Years a Slave" by Solomon Northrup (the book, not the movie); "How the Other Half Lives" by Jacob Riis; "Angela's Ashes," by Frank McCourt.
«In art as in science there is no delight without the detail ... Let me repeat that unless these are thoroughly understood and remembered, all “general ideas” (so easily acquired, so profitably resold) must necessarily remain but worn passports allowing their bearers short cuts from one area of ignorance to another.» Vladimir Nabokov, commentary on translation of “Eugene Onegin.”
You are correct. I
know very little about the actual immigrant experience in a global context.
I know of my maternal grandparent's and my paternal great-grandfather's reason for leaving Europe, their struggles to get to the United States and the situations they had to deal with once they arrived. My great-grandfather arrived in 1872. My grandparents arrived in 1921. So even this information that I have is extremely dated.
I am a programmer, not a student of history. I am looking for an understanding of a complex topic, beyond the "sound bites" of the politicians and the media. This is not happening is just one place, but people are being displaced from many countries and fleeing to many other countries. I can see, from articles in the media, what is not working. The question are: What can work? Are the issues different when it is one displaced family versus a mass displacement? How does society deal with their lack of documentation or education? How does the legal system deal with a marriage involving a woman below the age of consent which includes children? And the answers to these breed a whole host of new questions.
I will seriously consider your reading list. I do know that "How the Other Half Lives" and "Angela's Ashes" deal with the lives of immigrants during the same time period as when my fore-bearers arrived. They have been recommended to me before, but I have yet to find the time to read them.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
Jalapeno Bob wrote:
a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children
How "early teens" are we talking about, considering she's got 2 or 3 kids and it takes 9 months to produce one offspring? Assuming no twins or triplets. Sh*t like that just pisses me off.
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Jalapeno Bob wrote:
a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children
How "early teens" are we talking about, considering she's got 2 or 3 kids and it takes 9 months to produce one offspring? Assuming no twins or triplets. Sh*t like that just pisses me off.
Children as young as 11 are having children. In countries where child marriage is common, having two or more children by the age of 15 is, unfortunately, not uncommon. These days, most urban school districts right here in the United States have a number of teenage students and a few pre-teenage students with children.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Children as young as 11 are having children. In countries where child marriage is common, having two or more children by the age of 15 is, unfortunately, not uncommon. These days, most urban school districts right here in the United States have a number of teenage students and a few pre-teenage students with children.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
I realize it happens - but when it does, around most of the world, it's very much frowned upon, to put it mildly. Yet because they're "refugees", we're expected to show compassion and welcome them with open arms. Perhaps it's not so wise for our own governments to tell them they're given priority as refugees if they have a family.
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
I can't speak about how it is in America but I can add my view as a European. I believe that immigration or refugee handling is mishandled by mostly every European country. Either the countries are strongly against it or so pro refugee that our societies fail to handle it. First of all focus should be put to end the conflicts resulting in massive population displacement. That should be the main priority. Sadly its also highly unfeasible at this point because too many players has too many different interests in conflict regions. It's not as simple as compromising or letting go of a region or country because that will allow others to act more freely. But no matter how large the task this should still be the main concern for us as humans. Secondly should be to provide immediate aid and protection to refugees. Aid the countries that takes the most refugees to provide the basics. As it is currently upwards of over 1million a year makes the journey to Europe. It's both dangerous for the refugees/immigrants but also causes major frictions within European countries and between them. If we can provide safety in regional refugee camps work could be done to legally move refugees in a controlled manner towards willing countries. This would need to have a system for both returning refugees to camps which makes the illegal crossings as well as major economical, political and military moves to make sure one could do this. I think this is what should be done. Overall standardize refugee handling on an international level that allows for evacuating civilians from war zones as well as lay a foundation to legally move larger amounts of refugees. I think a large part of the European problem stems from this. Since so few refugees are allocated by the UN people decides to go on about it in their own ways. Once you move on to what should be done inside the receiving countries it warry more between the countries and gets a bit more complicated. It becomes a balancing act of sorts and I'm not going to go in to it with too much depth but I think priority should be given to families, women and children. I don't think whats happening in my country Sweden will be able to go on for longer without serious problems. Over 100k last year with a population of 10million and sever lack of homes. Where some countries got military industrial complexes we have gotten ourself a refugee industry. This is causing friction and risk causing major backlash which can make integration difficult as well as long term support of taking in larg
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I let this message through from the spam filter since it's not spam per definition. But it's political in nature and belongs in the soapbox.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
