National Values vs Young Refugees
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
I can't speak about how it is in America but I can add my view as a European. I believe that immigration or refugee handling is mishandled by mostly every European country. Either the countries are strongly against it or so pro refugee that our societies fail to handle it. First of all focus should be put to end the conflicts resulting in massive population displacement. That should be the main priority. Sadly its also highly unfeasible at this point because too many players has too many different interests in conflict regions. It's not as simple as compromising or letting go of a region or country because that will allow others to act more freely. But no matter how large the task this should still be the main concern for us as humans. Secondly should be to provide immediate aid and protection to refugees. Aid the countries that takes the most refugees to provide the basics. As it is currently upwards of over 1million a year makes the journey to Europe. It's both dangerous for the refugees/immigrants but also causes major frictions within European countries and between them. If we can provide safety in regional refugee camps work could be done to legally move refugees in a controlled manner towards willing countries. This would need to have a system for both returning refugees to camps which makes the illegal crossings as well as major economical, political and military moves to make sure one could do this. I think this is what should be done. Overall standardize refugee handling on an international level that allows for evacuating civilians from war zones as well as lay a foundation to legally move larger amounts of refugees. I think a large part of the European problem stems from this. Since so few refugees are allocated by the UN people decides to go on about it in their own ways. Once you move on to what should be done inside the receiving countries it warry more between the countries and gets a bit more complicated. It becomes a balancing act of sorts and I'm not going to go in to it with too much depth but I think priority should be given to families, women and children. I don't think whats happening in my country Sweden will be able to go on for longer without serious problems. Over 100k last year with a population of 10million and sever lack of homes. Where some countries got military industrial complexes we have gotten ourself a refugee industry. This is causing friction and risk causing major backlash which can make integration difficult as well as long term support of taking in larg
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I let this message through from the spam filter since it's not spam per definition. But it's political in nature and belongs in the soapbox.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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So you break the rules? (I guess you are in the "pro" camp)
Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany
No, I didn't break the rules AFAIK. If I don't let it through I'm messing up the spam filter. The spam filter is for spam, if there was another button for messages that gets stuck in the spam filter "Don't publish for other reasons" it might have been a different question. But then I also want the possibility to give the poster a reason for it.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival? Your view on immigrants is the same view that earlier Americans had towards your family. You can look back on your own family's story as a story of hope and determination, but the descendants of current immigrants will do the same with their family. Your view isn't new, you're just on the other side of it now. Nativism (politics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[^]
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.
I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.
wizardzz wrote:
Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival? (and) I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation. Y
Well, alas, you didn't get it straight at all. An answer that encompasses both of your comments: The generations it took my family to acclimate was . . . the first to arrive. Learning the st countries language so that more opportunities were available. They worked piece-work, long hours, and faced no shortage of discrimination. The key is they all wanted more for their children, and children wanted more for their children, in turn. So - one could sit comfortably in the ghetto, in poverty, or learn the ways of your host country so you can join in the economy. The current situation is that it has been made too comfortable and convenient to stay in the current equivalent of a ghetto - too comfortable to "stay with your own kind". Too comfortable to set an example for your children (who need not learn the local language) to follow in their footsteps. I don't say let them freeze and starve - but what I do say is motivate them to do more then miniature third-world environments by making the effort to leave more attractive than the comfort of staying. I, for one, do not want any second-class citizens.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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wizardzz wrote:
Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival? (and) I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation. Y
Well, alas, you didn't get it straight at all. An answer that encompasses both of your comments: The generations it took my family to acclimate was . . . the first to arrive. Learning the st countries language so that more opportunities were available. They worked piece-work, long hours, and faced no shortage of discrimination. The key is they all wanted more for their children, and children wanted more for their children, in turn. So - one could sit comfortably in the ghetto, in poverty, or learn the ways of your host country so you can join in the economy. The current situation is that it has been made too comfortable and convenient to stay in the current equivalent of a ghetto - too comfortable to "stay with your own kind". Too comfortable to set an example for your children (who need not learn the local language) to follow in their footsteps. I don't say let them freeze and starve - but what I do say is motivate them to do more then miniature third-world environments by making the effort to leave more attractive than the comfort of staying. I, for one, do not want any second-class citizens.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
That's great, so it goes back to my first post then. The ability for an immigrant to be upwardly mobile existed in the past, and it hardly exists now. Natural born citizens, natural English speakers, barely have the ability to be upwardly mobile. I'm sure we will disagree on this point, but that was my original point.
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That's great, so it goes back to my first post then. The ability for an immigrant to be upwardly mobile existed in the past, and it hardly exists now. Natural born citizens, natural English speakers, barely have the ability to be upwardly mobile. I'm sure we will disagree on this point, but that was my original point.
The ability still exists - I didn't ever say it's gone. It's just easier not to bother. Nothing was taken away, and if fact, opportunities are significantly enhanced: :but only if one bothers to use them. Don't try to (repeatedly) recast this as the upward mobility is not available. It is, and more of it. I hold people responsible for their own decisions. As I told my kids (high school/college advice): "you can work hard now - or work hard the rest of your life" Don't scapegoat "the system" when so many would rather hang out on street corners than study or even go to class*.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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The ability still exists - I didn't ever say it's gone. It's just easier not to bother. Nothing was taken away, and if fact, opportunities are significantly enhanced: :but only if one bothers to use them. Don't try to (repeatedly) recast this as the upward mobility is not available. It is, and more of it. I hold people responsible for their own decisions. As I told my kids (high school/college advice): "you can work hard now - or work hard the rest of your life" Don't scapegoat "the system" when so many would rather hang out on street corners than study or even go to class*.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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That's where we differ and I choose not to argue. Let me ask, who paid for your college? and who is paying for your children's college now?
Who paid for my college? Federal grants, federally subsidized loans, Several scholarships I won from the state. All still available. Graduate school, for the sciences, was a fellowship that covered tuition and some money to live on. My kids also received grants, scholarships, and federally subsidized loans. All now make more than I do, if money is any measure of success. Interestingly, one of them was a National Merit Scholarship finalist and got $0 for it: apparently sports are more highly valued at a university than intelligence. That, however, is a whole new thread. So - what was there for me was there for them - and is still there. That, of course, could easily change if the wrong party gets into power and cuts those opportunities so that only the rich need apply.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Consider a young family from a conflict region, consisting of a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children, who washes up on our shores, in a figurative sense. Until they were displaced, the husband successfully supported his family. Because of the conflict in their homeland, the possibility of safely returning home are, at best, many years in the future. The father has very little education. The mother has never been to school. Neither can read, even in their native language. They do not speak English nor (for readers whose native language is other than English) the language of your country. They have no documentation of any kind - identity cards, marriage certificate, birth certificates, passports or anything else.
What do we do with them? How can we help them? What supports can we, or even, should we provide, as a society, to enable them to adapt to their "new normal"?
When one of my great-grandfathers arrived in New York, all he owned was a change of clothes and a coat. When my mother's parents arrived in New York, they brought two steamer trunks of possessions - but nothing more. They received zero in the way of services to help them. But the world was very different then: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
It is not that way any more. Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community that provided this help. So how do we help these new arrivals?
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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I let this message through from the spam filter since it's not spam per definition. But it's political in nature and belongs in the soapbox.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
The response from the community was interesting, but not particularly heartwarming. I had hoped for a more informed discussion. From the responses, it is my opinion that although many members have heard of the issue, only a few members of the community are really aware of the reality of this issue. :(
The good news is that the community was respectful in their responses, keeping within the tone of the Lounge. No "flames" were posted.
We are programmers. Most of us are not movers and shakers in the world. To me, many of us appear to show very little interest in the world at large. I was hoping to shake their complacency a little and get them to at least think about the issue and the philosophical implications. As the famous Hungarian mathematician George Polya said:
This seems so obvious that it is often not even mentioned, yet students are often stymied in their efforts to solve problems simply because they don’t understand it fully, or even in part. (Polya, George, How To Solve It, 1945)
I am very content to leave the practical and political implications of creating solutions to the Soapbox.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock