The local perspective...

Chris Losinger

From the Straight Dope message boards, comes this interesting (and maybe a little disturbing) thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=5af0fcc0853a50dd5eac37f5b19f9d9b&threadid=172697&perpage=50&pagenumber=1[^] The thread was started by a member named "Collounsbury", who is a businessman of some sort, living in Baghdad; he seems to be very level-headed, and knows a hell of a lot more about the region (all of it) than anyone here. He offers a perspective you aren't going to get from any of the major news outlets, and offers such insights as: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Further of course, the Arab stations were broadcasting live during the first strikes, which were stunning. The effect was quite the contrary of the shock and awe theory, it raised anger. As the al-Jazeera commentor said, live, and in a tone of great bitterness, (to my recollection) and I have said more than once, there are 'democratic' roots in the region, but the history is such that it will take time and effort, good gardening to prepare them. I have also emphasized that these efforts must be nativized, not alien impositions. I specifically refered to the situation in Iran. There are important lessons there. Now I am sorry if this all shattres some magical thinking and mystical understanding of the region. I do business in an ugly neighborhood, but there are good things here, beaten down, but here. This stuff will not change overnight, and expectatinos of miracles will not get good policy. So, you want to form realistic opinions? Read carefully and go in with your eyes open. I firmly believe change is possible, that the region has real potential and it is NOT a big shit hole as Brutus said in the Pit on this subject. However, neither is it a garden ready [to] sprout the magical democracy seeds Americans have come to sow. It's a rocky, long neglected field in which different plants grew. Beautiful, lovely in many ways, but hard godda

Jamie Hale

My employer blocks that site. :( I'll going to dig into it when I get home. Thanks for the link. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Chris Losinger

blocks straight dope?? that's too bad. that means you can't learn the answer to today's question: "How did they get the stripes in Stripe toothpaste?" :) -c

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Lost User

I found it on the internet so it MUST be true. :rolleyes: Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

brianwelsch

I'll read more of it later, but initial thoughts on what you've copied here: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power Is it better to screw up and just leave it alone, or screw up and go in and try and make it better? I have also emphasized that these efforts must be nativized, not alien impositions. This I believe is the key to success. Both for Iraqs long-term benefit, as well to help show the US to not be the imperialist dogs some think them to be. This stuff will not change overnight I don't think anyone expects a new flourishing nation within a few years. Thanks for the link. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Chris Losinger

did you read any of it before coming up with that? IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. it would also be fairly surprising for the Straight Dope to get involved, or let itself get used for such a purpose. -c

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Chris Losinger

brianwelsch wrote: I'll read more of it later hopefully, the threads will answer your questions. or, you could even post them to that thread. my link here is strictly FYI. -c

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Lost User

The problem is most people outside US feel that US will screw up again, rather than fix anything. This is a very prominent view in India, atleast. Noone in India that I talked to, believes that this war is about long-term or short-term Iraqi benefit. If it occurs, they would consider it a pleasant consequence. They would not be surprised in the least, if US and UK installed another friendly dictator. One of my friends told me that the primary guy being considered for the job, is a defector for Saddam's administration; and is one of the prime accused in the chemical weapons usage. It would take a lot to convince anyone is Asia of good intentions from a US administration. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

Lost User

Chris Losinger wrote: did you read any of it before coming up with that? I read all of it. Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Why? I bill myself as a 39 year old engineer/programmer with a wife and two kids, but for all anybody really knows I could be a 14 year old with a neurosis. This IS the internet and chat rooms and message boards are routinely abused for much less reason than war. Chris Losinger wrote: it would also be fairly surprising for the Straight Dope to get involved, or let itself get used for such a purpose. How would they possibly know? Why would they care? Would they censor something like this if it were fake? P.S. - I never meant to imply that I thought it was patently false. It reads very convincingly. I was just reminding us to take it (and everything else we find on internet discussion forums) with a grain of salt. Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Chris Losinger

Mike Mullikin wrote: I never meant to imply that I thought it was patently false. "I found it on the internet so it MUST be true" + "rolleyes" can hardly be taken to mean anything else. -c

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Lost User

Chris Losinger wrote: can hardly be taken to mean anything else. Sure it can. All it takes is an open mind. Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Chris Losinger

Mike Mullikin wrote: Sure it can. All it takes is an open mind. i'll see what i can do. -c

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Brit

Good link. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion

Lost User

Given that many contracts have already been awarded to US (and some UK) firms I don't think policy is about to get any better. as for a US senator stanfing up and saying that the mobile phone network must use CDMA not GSM (the one used all other the middle east) because european firms hold patents - The Register[^] I hope I'm wrong :( The tigress is here :-D

brianwelsch

Thomas George wrote: believes that this war is about long-term or short-term Iraqi benefit As a primary reason, no it isn't. Thomas George wrote: If it occurs, they would consider it a pleasant consequence Let's hope this is the path it takes. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Felix Gartsman

Chris Losinger wrote: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Baath is pan-arabic socialist party. Extremelly left, goverment runs everything style. Baath all over the arab world was funded by USSR. Claiming support of Baath is against communisn is ignorant. Iraq ans Syria (Baath ruled) received russian weapons for free, supported terror against US, and repeatedly tried to overthrow pro-US rulers. US help wasn't against communism, it was against Iran. If Iraq lost, entire ME was in the hand of radical shia islam.

ColinDavies

Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Not that I disagree or agree, but Propaganda folk will go to incredible extremes to slant stuff exactly their way. Serious mate I don't believe anything I read anymore. I know that's sad. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox

ColinDavies

Felix Gartsman wrote: Baath is pan-arabic socialist party. Excellent point. It's amazing how many people have heard of the Baath party but have no idea of what it is about. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox

Rob Graham

Chris Losinger wrote: it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Hollywood screen writers do it every day, as do CIA screen writes, Al Jezeera screen writers...etc. :-D Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. - Elbert Hubbard

Chris Losinger

Rob Graham wrote: Hollywood screen writers do it every day i gotta tell ya. you guys are either more paranoid that even me, or you're simply out to make wise-ass remarks, or you hate the idea that GWB might have stepped in something smelly and sticky. i can't decide... :) (nothing personal, of course - it's just strange to get a string of "it's not true!!" messages on this, when we've seen much less credible links go by without a whimper) -c

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