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The local perspective...

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  • L Lost User

    Chris Losinger wrote: can hardly be taken to mean anything else. Sure it can. All it takes is an open mind. Mike Mullikin :beer:

    "I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

    C Offline
    C Offline
    Chris Losinger
    wrote on last edited by
    #12

    Mike Mullikin wrote: Sure it can. All it takes is an open mind. i'll see what i can do. -c

    Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

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    • C Chris Losinger

      From the Straight Dope message boards, comes this interesting (and maybe a little disturbing) thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=5af0fcc0853a50dd5eac37f5b19f9d9b&threadid=172697&perpage=50&pagenumber=1[^] The thread was started by a member named "Collounsbury", who is a businessman of some sort, living in Baghdad; he seems to be very level-headed, and knows a hell of a lot more about the region (all of it) than anyone here. He offers a perspective you aren't going to get from any of the major news outlets, and offers such insights as: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Further of course, the Arab stations were broadcasting live during the first strikes, which were stunning. The effect was quite the contrary of the shock and awe theory, it raised anger. As the al-Jazeera commentor said, live, and in a tone of great bitterness, (to my recollection) and I have said more than once, there are 'democratic' roots in the region, but the history is such that it will take time and effort, good gardening to prepare them. I have also emphasized that these efforts must be nativized, not alien impositions. I specifically refered to the situation in Iran. There are important lessons there. Now I am sorry if this all shattres some magical thinking and mystical understanding of the region. I do business in an ugly neighborhood, but there are good things here, beaten down, but here. This stuff will not change overnight, and expectatinos of miracles will not get good policy. So, you want to form realistic opinions? Read carefully and go in with your eyes open. I firmly believe change is possible, that the region has real potential and it is NOT a big shit hole as Brutus said in the Pit on this subject. However, neither is it a garden ready [to] sprout the magical democracy seeds Americans have come to sow. It's a rocky, long neglected field in which different plants grew. Beautiful, lovely in many ways, but hard godda

      B Offline
      B Offline
      Brit
      wrote on last edited by
      #13

      Good link. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion

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      • C Chris Losinger

        From the Straight Dope message boards, comes this interesting (and maybe a little disturbing) thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=5af0fcc0853a50dd5eac37f5b19f9d9b&threadid=172697&perpage=50&pagenumber=1[^] The thread was started by a member named "Collounsbury", who is a businessman of some sort, living in Baghdad; he seems to be very level-headed, and knows a hell of a lot more about the region (all of it) than anyone here. He offers a perspective you aren't going to get from any of the major news outlets, and offers such insights as: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Further of course, the Arab stations were broadcasting live during the first strikes, which were stunning. The effect was quite the contrary of the shock and awe theory, it raised anger. As the al-Jazeera commentor said, live, and in a tone of great bitterness, (to my recollection) and I have said more than once, there are 'democratic' roots in the region, but the history is such that it will take time and effort, good gardening to prepare them. I have also emphasized that these efforts must be nativized, not alien impositions. I specifically refered to the situation in Iran. There are important lessons there. Now I am sorry if this all shattres some magical thinking and mystical understanding of the region. I do business in an ugly neighborhood, but there are good things here, beaten down, but here. This stuff will not change overnight, and expectatinos of miracles will not get good policy. So, you want to form realistic opinions? Read carefully and go in with your eyes open. I firmly believe change is possible, that the region has real potential and it is NOT a big shit hole as Brutus said in the Pit on this subject. However, neither is it a garden ready [to] sprout the magical democracy seeds Americans have come to sow. It's a rocky, long neglected field in which different plants grew. Beautiful, lovely in many ways, but hard godda

        L Offline
        L Offline
        Lost User
        wrote on last edited by
        #14

        Given that many contracts have already been awarded to US (and some UK) firms I don't think policy is about to get any better. as for a US senator stanfing up and saying that the mobile phone network must use CDMA not GSM (the one used all other the middle east) because european firms hold patents - The Register[^] I hope I'm wrong :( The tigress is here :-D

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        • L Lost User

          The problem is most people outside US feel that US will screw up again, rather than fix anything. This is a very prominent view in India, atleast. Noone in India that I talked to, believes that this war is about long-term or short-term Iraqi benefit. If it occurs, they would consider it a pleasant consequence. They would not be surprised in the least, if US and UK installed another friendly dictator. One of my friends told me that the primary guy being considered for the job, is a defector for Saddam's administration; and is one of the prime accused in the chemical weapons usage. It would take a lot to convince anyone is Asia of good intentions from a US administration. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

          B Offline
          B Offline
          brianwelsch
          wrote on last edited by
          #15

          Thomas George wrote: believes that this war is about long-term or short-term Iraqi benefit As a primary reason, no it isn't. Thomas George wrote: If it occurs, they would consider it a pleasant consequence Let's hope this is the path it takes. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

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          • C Chris Losinger

            From the Straight Dope message boards, comes this interesting (and maybe a little disturbing) thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=5af0fcc0853a50dd5eac37f5b19f9d9b&threadid=172697&perpage=50&pagenumber=1[^] The thread was started by a member named "Collounsbury", who is a businessman of some sort, living in Baghdad; he seems to be very level-headed, and knows a hell of a lot more about the region (all of it) than anyone here. He offers a perspective you aren't going to get from any of the major news outlets, and offers such insights as: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Further of course, the Arab stations were broadcasting live during the first strikes, which were stunning. The effect was quite the contrary of the shock and awe theory, it raised anger. As the al-Jazeera commentor said, live, and in a tone of great bitterness, (to my recollection) and I have said more than once, there are 'democratic' roots in the region, but the history is such that it will take time and effort, good gardening to prepare them. I have also emphasized that these efforts must be nativized, not alien impositions. I specifically refered to the situation in Iran. There are important lessons there. Now I am sorry if this all shattres some magical thinking and mystical understanding of the region. I do business in an ugly neighborhood, but there are good things here, beaten down, but here. This stuff will not change overnight, and expectatinos of miracles will not get good policy. So, you want to form realistic opinions? Read carefully and go in with your eyes open. I firmly believe change is possible, that the region has real potential and it is NOT a big shit hole as Brutus said in the Pit on this subject. However, neither is it a garden ready [to] sprout the magical democracy seeds Americans have come to sow. It's a rocky, long neglected field in which different plants grew. Beautiful, lovely in many ways, but hard godda

            F Offline
            F Offline
            Felix Gartsman
            wrote on last edited by
            #16

            Chris Losinger wrote: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Baath is pan-arabic socialist party. Extremelly left, goverment runs everything style. Baath all over the arab world was funded by USSR. Claiming support of Baath is against communisn is ignorant. Iraq ans Syria (Baath ruled) received russian weapons for free, supported terror against US, and repeatedly tried to overthrow pro-US rulers. US help wasn't against communism, it was against Iran. If Iraq lost, entire ME was in the hand of radical shia islam.

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            • C Chris Losinger

              did you read any of it before coming up with that? IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. it would also be fairly surprising for the Straight Dope to get involved, or let itself get used for such a purpose. -c

              Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

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              C Offline
              ColinDavies
              wrote on last edited by
              #17

              Chris Losinger wrote: IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Not that I disagree or agree, but Propaganda folk will go to incredible extremes to slant stuff exactly their way. Serious mate I don't believe anything I read anymore. I know that's sad. Regardz Colin J Davies

              Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

              Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox

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              • F Felix Gartsman

                Chris Losinger wrote: No one in this region has forgotten the CIA helped the Baath come to power and the US looked at the Baath and Sadaam as bulwarks to communism until that threat passed, and now has suddenly discovered a tender regard for the Iraqi people. Baath is pan-arabic socialist party. Extremelly left, goverment runs everything style. Baath all over the arab world was funded by USSR. Claiming support of Baath is against communisn is ignorant. Iraq ans Syria (Baath ruled) received russian weapons for free, supported terror against US, and repeatedly tried to overthrow pro-US rulers. US help wasn't against communism, it was against Iran. If Iraq lost, entire ME was in the hand of radical shia islam.

                C Offline
                C Offline
                ColinDavies
                wrote on last edited by
                #18

                Felix Gartsman wrote: Baath is pan-arabic socialist party. Excellent point. It's amazing how many people have heard of the Baath party but have no idea of what it is about. Regardz Colin J Davies

                Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

                Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox

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                • C Chris Losinger

                  did you read any of it before coming up with that? IMO, it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. it would also be fairly surprising for the Straight Dope to get involved, or let itself get used for such a purpose. -c

                  Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

                  R Offline
                  R Offline
                  Rob Graham
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #19

                  Chris Losinger wrote: it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Hollywood screen writers do it every day, as do CIA screen writes, Al Jezeera screen writers...etc. :-D Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. - Elbert Hubbard

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                  • R Rob Graham

                    Chris Losinger wrote: it would be pretty f'in difficult to fake 7 pages of conversations with dozens of people just for the sake of propaganda. Hollywood screen writers do it every day, as do CIA screen writes, Al Jezeera screen writers...etc. :-D Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. - Elbert Hubbard

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                    C Offline
                    Chris Losinger
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #20

                    Rob Graham wrote: Hollywood screen writers do it every day i gotta tell ya. you guys are either more paranoid that even me, or you're simply out to make wise-ass remarks, or you hate the idea that GWB might have stepped in something smelly and sticky. i can't decide... :) (nothing personal, of course - it's just strange to get a string of "it's not true!!" messages on this, when we've seen much less credible links go by without a whimper) -c

                    Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

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                    • C Chris Losinger

                      Rob Graham wrote: Hollywood screen writers do it every day i gotta tell ya. you guys are either more paranoid that even me, or you're simply out to make wise-ass remarks, or you hate the idea that GWB might have stepped in something smelly and sticky. i can't decide... :) (nothing personal, of course - it's just strange to get a string of "it's not true!!" messages on this, when we've seen much less credible links go by without a whimper) -c

                      Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

                      R Offline
                      R Offline
                      Rob Graham
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #21

                      Mostly just a wise-ass remark. Not much doubt GWB is in a stickier mess than hoped for. Still, I'm not willing to give much of anything I see full credibility. All sides are spinning wildly IMO. :rose: Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. - Elbert Hubbard

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