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Bloody nose for developers

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  • L Offline
    L Offline
    Leng Vang
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Put engineers and managers in a room, engineers always end up bloody noses. Ok, I asked about formal software engineering and thanks for your comments. Most said that because circumstance forces upon requiring to practice FSE, e.g. in a life threatening situation. I interpreted that must means that business software is secondary importance. Probably not what a business owner's intention. Due to budget constraints that customers or bosses demanded more for less. However, the principle of a requirement dictates that when a project is crunch against time and budget, the more we must follow formal engineering, within sprint cycle or project cycle. My next question is: Who is letting this behavior happen?

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    • L Leng Vang

      Put engineers and managers in a room, engineers always end up bloody noses. Ok, I asked about formal software engineering and thanks for your comments. Most said that because circumstance forces upon requiring to practice FSE, e.g. in a life threatening situation. I interpreted that must means that business software is secondary importance. Probably not what a business owner's intention. Due to budget constraints that customers or bosses demanded more for less. However, the principle of a requirement dictates that when a project is crunch against time and budget, the more we must follow formal engineering, within sprint cycle or project cycle. My next question is: Who is letting this behavior happen?

      W Offline
      W Offline
      W Balboos GHB
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      You answered your own question when you asked it. They're "managers" and so get to make the decisions. Informed or otherwise.

      Ravings en masse^

      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

      "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

      L 1 Reply Last reply
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      • W W Balboos GHB

        You answered your own question when you asked it. They're "managers" and so get to make the decisions. Informed or otherwise.

        Ravings en masse^

        "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

        "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

        L Offline
        L Offline
        Leng Vang
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        I was once told that the difference between an experienced developer and a naive one is that an experienced knows how to say "No" to a to-be failed project.

        W L 2 Replies Last reply
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        • L Leng Vang

          I was once told that the difference between an experienced developer and a naive one is that an experienced knows how to say "No" to a to-be failed project.

          W Offline
          W Offline
          W Balboos GHB
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          More correctly, and experienced developer is harder to replace and can throw his/her weight around a little better - and likely knows how to rub their faces in the failed project and is perfectly willing to do it. Build your reputation for doing doing it right and doing it well - and going against your opinion starts to carry risks. Management, unless actually competent, doesn't want to take risks for which they cannot push the blame off on others.

          Ravings en masse^

          "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

          "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

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          • L Leng Vang

            Put engineers and managers in a room, engineers always end up bloody noses. Ok, I asked about formal software engineering and thanks for your comments. Most said that because circumstance forces upon requiring to practice FSE, e.g. in a life threatening situation. I interpreted that must means that business software is secondary importance. Probably not what a business owner's intention. Due to budget constraints that customers or bosses demanded more for less. However, the principle of a requirement dictates that when a project is crunch against time and budget, the more we must follow formal engineering, within sprint cycle or project cycle. My next question is: Who is letting this behavior happen?

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Show them this.[^]. Tell them to picktheir favorite tradeoff between time, budget and scope and tell them what quality they can expect if they want to go down that path. Don't let them off the hook. No phrases and no hand waving. Then, whatever they want, get it in written form and simply do it that way. When the time comes, just hold up that paper and say "I told you so.".

            The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
            This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
            "I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.

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            • L Leng Vang

              Put engineers and managers in a room, engineers always end up bloody noses. Ok, I asked about formal software engineering and thanks for your comments. Most said that because circumstance forces upon requiring to practice FSE, e.g. in a life threatening situation. I interpreted that must means that business software is secondary importance. Probably not what a business owner's intention. Due to budget constraints that customers or bosses demanded more for less. However, the principle of a requirement dictates that when a project is crunch against time and budget, the more we must follow formal engineering, within sprint cycle or project cycle. My next question is: Who is letting this behavior happen?

              N Offline
              N Offline
              Nathan Minier
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              The amount of technical debt that a project is willing to take on is up to the managers. There's no winning that fight if they've decided that rapid implementation trumps solid design. As a plus, they're the ones that will need to justify the post-development budget. So there's that.

              "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

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              • L Leng Vang

                Put engineers and managers in a room, engineers always end up bloody noses. Ok, I asked about formal software engineering and thanks for your comments. Most said that because circumstance forces upon requiring to practice FSE, e.g. in a life threatening situation. I interpreted that must means that business software is secondary importance. Probably not what a business owner's intention. Due to budget constraints that customers or bosses demanded more for less. However, the principle of a requirement dictates that when a project is crunch against time and budget, the more we must follow formal engineering, within sprint cycle or project cycle. My next question is: Who is letting this behavior happen?

                M Offline
                M Offline
                MikeTheFid
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                There are only three things that can be controlled: - scope - time - resources As a project lead, I only agree to a project where at least one of the three are in my control (or in the control of someone I trust to represent my interests). I only needed one example of participating in a project where none were in the control of engineering to cure me. (Yes, time is a resource. But it is important enough to stand on its own as a lever of control.)

                Cheers, Mike Fidler "I intend to live forever - so far, so good." Steven Wright "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met." Also Steven Wright "I'm addicted to placebos. I could quit, but it wouldn't matter." Steven Wright yet again.

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                • L Leng Vang

                  I was once told that the difference between an experienced developer and a naive one is that an experienced knows how to say "No" to a to-be failed project.

                  L Offline
                  L Offline
                  Lost User
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Leng Vang wrote:

                  an experienced knows how to say "No" to a to-be failed project

                  A very experienced developer tried that on a project I was involved with, some years ago. He was escorted from the building.

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