Why any less wild?
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've read some articles lately that hint that humans have a genetic pre-disposition towards religions and beliefs in powers greater than what we can see. I believe it also leans towards a mixture of social conditioning, psychological rationalizing, and egotism as a result of what you spoke of when it comes to humans. Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. yeah, i agree. religion is probably just one result of the interaction of more basic traits which all of us share. but it's an interaction over which we don't have much control; nearly everyone has a religion of some kind. -c
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brianwelsch wrote: suggests Gods exist based on human worship. Meaning the more people worship a God the stronger he becomes. Aaahh so that is where Terry Pratchette got his Small Gods idea from. Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself by reading AG rather than spouting on about a hilarious but less intelectual book. :-D brianwelsch wrote: It's as probable as anything to me. Like a flipping endless tree we think.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: less intelectual book i wouldn't go that far. ;) Haven't read Pratchett, but my feeling is they are birds of a feather. One more fantastic the other more humourous. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? Aliens are another form of life. We know and can prove conclusivily that life can and does exist and the only question is does it exist in another location. God cannot be proven to exist empirically nor can supernatural phenomena be proven empirically ( as a example that can be recreated or repeated consistantly ). Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher. Of course if your idea of God is based on the complete acceptance of the Bible or other such text alien life is completly out of the question as it would tend to lead to questions if the alien life form was not like ours and had no idea of our God. This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher Well exactly. So why is a Christian in charge of the most powerful country on Earth, yet a man who claims aliens exist is derided for being a nut? Richard Stringer wrote: This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. I think their counter would be; God has a plan. The Bible does not exclude alien existance, it does not speak of it. God tells us what we need to know, and in his judgement we do not need to know about life forms elsewhere. Something like that. Most organised religions are very clever in being able to counter things like that with the simple "God has a plan" statement.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Shog9 wrote: Do you feel alone, Paul? Not actually, not in any context really. Protons clump together as electrons zip around them. Elements gather into molecules. Molecules into cells. Cells cluster into bodies. My thoughts keep each other company. We post to the same Lounge. Our countries have each other. Continents socialise. Planets circle the same star. Solar systems gather in clusters. Galaxies swirl and merge together. One day other intelligent life will circle our planet and shake our hands/heads/ears/[insert relevant custom]. They are out there.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Use Linux. You get far more friends that way.
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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From the very beginning of the Bible, Man has occupied a central position. God created all the animals and then created mankind to rule over them. Religion revolves around the story of mankind and it's relationship to God. So, when we discovered that humans were surprisingly apelike, it was immediately rejected by believers (because we're not animals! we're above them, created separately by God). Humans share 98.7% of our base-pairs with the chimpanzee. But, scientific facts are not to be elevated over the special revelation of God, they argue. And, Christianity readily embraced the Aristolean idea of a geo-centric solar system. Again, because of the belief that mankind was center-stage in this large story about mankind and god. For a long time after the Copernicus model, some people were still proposing alternet theories about planetary motion which involved the earth in the center of the solar system, and the planets and sun revolving in strange eliptical orbits which just happened to follow the same paths as a solar-centric model. To propose the idea of aliens means that human civilization is again removed from central stage in this big story of God and Humankind. (It should be noted that some Christians have turned the possiblity of aliens around and said, "why should God limit his creativity to one planet?" Thus, changing the debate about aliens from "the centrality of mankind and the religious story" into "God is greater than we imagine". If aliens are found, there is little doubt that this shift in thinking about the subject will occur.) ( Of course, the reality of evolution, the solar-centric solar system, and the existence of aliens doesn't necessarily invalidate the reality of the religious story - but it's just a little too close for comfort for many people, so it creates resistence. ) [Edit] A second factor is probably the fact that the perception of an idea is influenced by our perception of the believers in that idea. There are quite a few people running around talking about meeting aliens which seem rather nutty (have you noticed that rather odd jumpsuit that the Raelian leader wears?). The result is that the idea of aliens doesn't get much respect because we judge ideas based on the perception of people who believe those ideas. Religion, on the other hand, is believed by lots of normal people, so it doesn't suffer from the same problem. You can point out specific cults and religious ideas, though, that do suffer from the strangeness of their followers. [\Edit] ---
Brit wrote: To propose the idea of aliens means that human civilization is again removed from central stage in this big story of God and Humankind. Yeah, and those delightful believers decided to throw Galileo in jail (although he ended up bound to his home) for that too. Brit wrote: For a long time after the Copernicus model, some people were still proposing alternet theories about planetary motion which involved the earth in the center of the solar system, and the planets and sun revolving in strange eliptical orbits which just happened to follow the same paths as a solar-centric model. Yeah, in short, it's called ego. That coincides with my other post, cool. :cool: Jeremy Falcon
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Paul Watson wrote: as fanciful as Santa Claus. That's it, Paul!! You talk about the unproven existance of God and aliens, but deny Santa's presence, and I've got to say something. :mad: I get presents each and every Christmas with the name Santa on at least one of them. That's all the proof I need. Although his penmanship is suspiciously like my mother's. :suss: :confused: Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? What if .. oh, nevermind.;P BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
5 :laugh: Elaine (highly amused fluffy tigress) [edit] Unless you were serious.... :~ [/edit] The tigress is here :-D
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People don't go to war over whether Martians exist...
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
Yet! ;P Jeremy Falcon
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Use Linux. You get far more friends that way.
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
Jonny Newman wrote: Use Linux. You get far more friends that way. :rolleyes: Did someone stick a "I am lonely" notice on my back or something? I was saying how I am not lonely, nor is my defense trying to cover the very thing itself up (and neither is that!) Jeeeesh. Paul "Human Happy Pill" Watson. Shog said so. I don't need Linux or friends. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? Aliens are another form of life. We know and can prove conclusivily that life can and does exist and the only question is does it exist in another location. God cannot be proven to exist empirically nor can supernatural phenomena be proven empirically ( as a example that can be recreated or repeated consistantly ). Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher. Of course if your idea of God is based on the complete acceptance of the Bible or other such text alien life is completly out of the question as it would tend to lead to questions if the alien life form was not like ours and had no idea of our God. This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. I guess that would make the enormous assumption that God choose to reveal the whole of life through the Bible, and not just bits that were relevant to us. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Who said anything about death ? :-D. To search for aliens you need a lot of equipment & stuff, to search for inner peace you need just some spare time :)
solon wrote: To search for aliens you need a lot of equipment & stuff, to search for inner peace you need just some spare time Yeah but you don't even need religion to find inner peace. Plus if it is inner peace then I am sure God would not want to disturb you while you are exploring it. And Mulder proved you don't need equipment to find aliens, they come to you. All you need is a death wish and a father who smokes lots of cigarettes... :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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People don't go to war over whether Martians exist...
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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Jonny Newman wrote: Use Linux. You get far more friends that way. :rolleyes: Did someone stick a "I am lonely" notice on my back or something? I was saying how I am not lonely, nor is my defense trying to cover the very thing itself up (and neither is that!) Jeeeesh. Paul "Human Happy Pill" Watson. Shog said so. I don't need Linux or friends. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: I don't need Linux or friends. Have you used the former at any point? We now know you havn't had the latter. Think of all the wonderfull cool people you meet at acne.org Linux.org
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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Shog9 wrote: Do you feel alone, Paul? Not actually, not in any context really. Protons clump together as electrons zip around them. Elements gather into molecules. Molecules into cells. Cells cluster into bodies. My thoughts keep each other company. We post to the same Lounge. Our countries have each other. Continents socialise. Planets circle the same star. Solar systems gather in clusters. Galaxies swirl and merge together. One day other intelligent life will circle our planet and shake our hands/heads/ears/[insert relevant custom]. They are out there.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: insert relevant custom I hear anal probing is the big thing with Sentient Beings from Outer Space of late... That and cattle mutilation.
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
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I don't know. If I hear someone else say that aliens built the great Egyptian pyramids, I am going to bust some heads. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
Nah, we all know the Jews built the pyramids. Or was that only on the simpsons :rolleyes:
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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Paul Watson wrote: insert relevant custom I hear anal probing is the big thing with Sentient Beings from Outer Space of late... That and cattle mutilation.
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
Shog9 wrote: That and cattle mutilation You had better start running then Shog... :-O My apologies, that was an incredibly low(ing) shot... *sigh* Someone anal probe me now before I carry on.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Paul Watson wrote: Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me Well, that's what it comes down to though, doesn't it? If everyone thought like Paul Watson, then we would all be horribly sick of photography the world would be quite a different place. Thankfully (?), we do not, and so some of us are free to believe in God, gods, Fat Saints Delivering Gifts, and Fresh Cheese Curds as the Most Perfect Food. Consider the sum of human knowledge. Can any of us, with our finite intelligence and lifespans, ever hope to know and understand all that our fellow men know and understand? No. Thus we must trust others to some extent in order to make use of their knowledge and understanding. Who you trust has a lot to do with what you believe...
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
Shog9 wrote: Who you trust has a lot to do with what you believe... Is that why conspiracy theorist are so screwed up? BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. yeah, i agree. religion is probably just one result of the interaction of more basic traits which all of us share. but it's an interaction over which we don't have much control; nearly everyone has a religion of some kind. -c
Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler
Chris Losinger wrote: nearly everyone has a religion of some kind Yup. I used to have a friend that said, "If I had to choose a God, I'd choose the sun as the giver of life." Well, at least many wouldn't deny his God's existence. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Paul Watson wrote: Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me Well, that's what it comes down to though, doesn't it? If everyone thought like Paul Watson, then we would all be horribly sick of photography the world would be quite a different place. Thankfully (?), we do not, and so some of us are free to believe in God, gods, Fat Saints Delivering Gifts, and Fresh Cheese Curds as the Most Perfect Food. Consider the sum of human knowledge. Can any of us, with our finite intelligence and lifespans, ever hope to know and understand all that our fellow men know and understand? No. Thus we must trust others to some extent in order to make use of their knowledge and understanding. Who you trust has a lot to do with what you believe...
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
I certainly was not trying to denounce other peoples beliefs or say that mine are the one and only. In fact "my way of thinking" does not exclude God, while "their" way of thinking does exclude aliens/mutilated-cattle/etc. Or at least that is how they have implemented it, even if the original class in no way says aliens do not exist. I am just curious as to how people can say "God exists!" but then turn around and say a far lesser concept does not. Shog9 wrote: Who you trust has a lot to do with what you believe... So when I say I don't believe that Fresh Cheese Curds are the Most Perfect Food then you can surmise that... ;) p.s. Your very cool sig is interfering with selecting text to quote :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Yet! ;P Jeremy Falcon
"The War of the are-there-other-worlds" :-D If what Paul was saying was true, then there is no reason why there wouldn't be "ET Wars". The Trekkies vs the Star Wars Lovers would be an early one. Trekkie: "People on earth speak Klingon, they MUST exist" Star Wars Lover: "Well I've made my own C3PO army!" Sci-Fi Hater: "Didn't they find Klingons on Uranus?" *snigger*
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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Who said anything about death ? :-D. To search for aliens you need a lot of equipment & stuff, to search for inner peace you need just some spare time :)
solon wrote: to search for inner peace you need just some spare time Yeah, that and a stable job so that I can pay my bills on time and eat when I'm hungry, works wonders for my inner peace. ;P Regards, Alvaro
When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. -- despair.com