Programmer vs software engineer
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Everyone at the current gig is called a "software engineer". I don't really care much for titles - I just enjoy getting paid to play with computers all day.
It wasnt a 'title' question, but a 'what sort of person are you' question. Either a detail obsessed bit stuffer, ie, programmer, or someone with the wider big view, the designer (which is what I do and regularly make a mess of live coding tests because I use calc to verify all my bitwise logic and google to look up the syntax of the stuff I, regularly, forget. :)
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It wasnt a 'title' question, but a 'what sort of person are you' question. Either a detail obsessed bit stuffer, ie, programmer, or someone with the wider big view, the designer (which is what I do and regularly make a mess of live coding tests because I use calc to verify all my bitwise logic and google to look up the syntax of the stuff I, regularly, forget. :)
Munchies_Matt wrote:
'what sort of person are you'
Nice
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
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So, what's wrong with SysAdmin and Operations? Why does it have to be "DevOps"? Oh, that's right, it sounds cooler. :doh:
Sorry for my late reply ... the term has been around for about 10 years, and this is a good summary of its history (https://www.ca.com/us/rewrite/articles/devops/a-short-history-of-devops.html) I guess it depends on many aspects whether or not it is useful. In my case (a senior developer in a SME) it serves well its purpose to describe what I do :) , BR
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
'what sort of person are you'
Nice
R. Giskard Reventlov wrote:
Nice
I think we should vote on that. :laugh:
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
It's the holes in the roles that I play that make, or break, my day.
«While I complain of being able to see only a shadow of the past, I may be insensitive to reality as it is now, since I'm not at a stage of development where I'm capable of seeing it. A few hundred years later another traveler despairing as myself, may mourn the disappearance of what I may have seen, but failed to see.» Claude Levi-Strauss (Tristes Tropiques, 1955)
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
Software Engineerings tell you what to do, Programmers need somebody who tells them what to do and sometimes how to do it. ;P
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
I have 58 reasons to code - to bitcoin a phrase
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
After graduation I joined an aerospace engineering firm on their graduate training programme. A 2 year period of courses, working in various departments in the company, and honing my software skills. My mentor told me on day 1 "you think you're a good programmer, which you probably are, but you're not an engineer, we're going to train you for that", I thought "what does he know?" I learned so much. Programming is actually a much smaller part of software engineering. It's about the application of rigorous standards and processes to whatever you do, while applying a formal set of constraints. It's the ability to flow down system requirements to individual testable functionality, and tracing that all the way through to final acceptance. I spent 3 years in the systems engineering department. This was a collection of individuals with various specialisations; mathematicians modelling scenarios, and developing complex algorithms, for example. I worked on bid prep and requirements gathering and analysis. Meeting stakeholders and identifying their user requirements, then translating these to system and functional requirements, to be flowed down to software engineers, while also creating the associated test framework so that each requirement could be tested, and the whole thing formulate a system acceptance process. Much of my time was spent using software like DOORS. Subsystem interfaces and dependancies were probably the most challenging part (software eng. can be thought of, in it's purest form, as developing a series of interfaces). As I became more senior, I became a graduate mentor, for what was now a 4 year graduate training programme, leading to CEng. I remember using the quote my mentor used above for each of my graduates, and guessed they thought exactly the same as me when I was a graduate. I've met many developers who think they're engineers, and they just hack some code and knock up a bit of documentation (slight exaggeration there). Process never enters their mind, and that's he most important part of engineering. Engineering in the UK is not really recognised as one of the professions, which is bizarre. It's fixed up with technician, or mechanic. In the US, I believe you have to be registered. I worked for some time with a German firm, and there, they are considered a proper profession. My father's best friend was a successful architect, and said that in many countries, engineers are revered more than architects. In Germany, if you are introduced to somebody as an engineer, they'll want to
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:( Could be.
Happens to all of us. I'm in my fifties now, and Google, stack overflow, and text books are open constantly as I work. Still got all me own teeth, tho'. :)
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
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Software Engineers design and implement entire software application systems. Programmers/developers take those designs and code individual units of work from those designs/specs. Programmers/developers rarely design. So, if you are designing things, then you are an engineer/architect, if you are strictly just coding to someone else's designs/specs, you are a developer/programmer. Simples. Edit: Semantics. Some would argue that "developers" develop software, similar to engineer/architect. With that said, I guess the word "developer" is interchangeable here. - depends on your employer.
Current job title is "Software Development Engineer, Staff". We pretty much do it all. We have Business Analysts who do no coding but come up with the requirements and tell us what the forms should look like. For the most part as long as I get a steady paycheck and benefits I really don't care what they call us as long as it's nothing derogatory. Scott
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So, what's wrong with SysAdmin and Operations? Why does it have to be "DevOps"? Oh, that's right, it sounds cooler. :doh:
Nothing is wrong with those, but they're not developers, and vice-versa. There may be a branding element to the term, but I think it does describe a different enough job to warrant its own title.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
I describe myself as a computer engineer. Initially I did so because my college degree was in computer engineering (Wright State University[^], class of '84). We were the bastard step-child of the computer science and electrical engineering programs, who put us through their hardest classes in the hopes we'd give up and go away. For a few like myself, it didn't work. Now I use the term because most of my work is in process control software, which uses one or more computers to automate or control industrial equipment. I do that via programming (writing software) and software engineering (programming according to a set of guiding principles and best practices), which makes me both a programmer and a software engineer.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Current job title is "Software Development Engineer, Staff". We pretty much do it all. We have Business Analysts who do no coding but come up with the requirements and tell us what the forms should look like. For the most part as long as I get a steady paycheck and benefits I really don't care what they call us as long as it's nothing derogatory. Scott
CodeZombie62 wrote:
as long as it's nothing derogatory.
That's always nice. Don't call me Lead Jackass. :) I actually take the approach that Pete mentioned in his reply.
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Happens to all of us. I'm in my fifties now, and Google, stack overflow, and text books are open constantly as I work. Still got all me own teeth, tho'. :)
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
I'm a literate programmer. Good luck categorising that.
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I continually have to check the details of syntax and stuff when programming. Things like print format specifiers, the syntax of things I havent used for a year or so, and use a calculator to work out bit masks and check my bit wise logic. I can never get it right in my head. I dont remember details. I dont pride myself on that. I spend my time and energy on the big picture. Designing and understanding complex mechanisms. The architecture. The guts of the machine. So I think of myself as a software engineer, not a programmer. How about you lot?
In the state of Texas and many others, you need to be a registered, Professional Engineer (P.E.) to have "engineer" anywhere in your job title. Architects that design buildings are picky about these things as well. What does MCSE stand for today? E used to stand for Engineer, but now it stands for Expert.
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I think I'm a software engineer, because that gets me cheaper car insurance than programmer. Have I mentioned how car insurance is a giant scam yet...?
No, but go ahead, sounds interesting.